[EE] Connecting european device to US main.

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[EE] Connecting european device to US main.

Carlos Marcano
Hi!

I have a device that gets its main power from a 220VAC phase to neutral
outlet and I need to connect it to a 220VAC  phase to phase outlet (110VAC
phase to neutral).

Can I do it that way, just going 220 phase to phase and grounding the
outlet neutral?

Thanks in advance!

Regards,

Carlos.
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Re: [EE] Connecting european device to US main.

Bob Blick-5
Hi Carlos,

That won't work. Neutral and ground are connected together in several places, including your breaker box and your neighbor's breaker box and any sub panels. If you really need 220V phase to neutral and don't have an industrial three-phase connection to utility power, you will need to use a transformer.

I'm curious what would need 220V phase to neutral, but wouldn't work with 240V phase to phase.

You can get 240V by finding two 120V outlets that are on different phases and hacking up a couple of extension cords. It won't work if either outlet is protected by a GFCI. And of course, it's dangerous and should never be done. And it's still 240V phase to phase.

Friendly regards, Bob


________________________________________
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of Carlos Marcano
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 6:51 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: [EE] Connecting european device to US main.

Hi!

I have a device that gets its main power from a 220VAC phase to neutral
outlet and I need to connect it to a 220VAC  phase to phase outlet (110VAC
phase to neutral).

Can I do it that way, just going 220 phase to phase and grounding the
outlet neutral?

Thanks in advance!

Regards,

Carlos.
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Re: [EE] Connecting european device to US main.

peter green-2
In reply to this post by Carlos Marcano
On 26/01/2021 14:51, Carlos Marcano wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I have a device that gets its main power from a 220VAC phase to neutral
> outlet and I need to connect it to a 220VAC  phase to phase outlet (110VAC
> phase to neutral).
>
> Can I do it that way, just going 220 phase to phase and grounding the
> outlet neutral?

If it's a modern European device, you should just be able to connect the
device's "live" conductor to one phase and the devices neutral conductor
to the other phase with ground (if required) connected as normal.

Modern European devices have to be designed to be usable in germany which
means they have to be designed not to care if their neutral is actually
neutral.

Don't connect any current carrying conductor to ground, that way lies
shorts.

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Re: [EE] Connecting european device to US main.

Harold Hallikainen-3
I agree that phase to phase will give 240 V (unless you're on a 3 phase
wye, in which case it will be 208 V). Most electronic devices now have
"universal" power supplies that work from something like 100 V to 260 V.

One thought on doing a phase to phase connection is the loss of
overcurrent protection. I think pretty much everything only fuses the hot
side of the power line. That guarantees no high voltage in a device that
blows a fuse (blowing a fuse in the neutral would remove an overcurrent
load but leave line voltage in the device). But, if operating phase to
phase, what about a "neutral" to ground short? There would be no
overcurrent protection at the device (just the branch circuit protection).

I have thought of powering audio equipment that has a universal power
supply from 240 V phase to phase to provide it with "balanced power" that
results in a cancellation of ground leakage current due to the EMI filter
Y capacitors. But, I am concerned about a lack of protection  on one side
of the line.

Harold



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Re: [EE] Connecting european device to US main.

Bob Blick-5
Hi Harold,

If you look at a residential North American breaker panel, you'll see lots of single circuit breakers for 120V circuits, and some wide 240V breakers that grab both busbars. The 240V breakers disconnect both phases even if only one phase causes the trip. It's a code requirement.

Drawing a 240V load from two opposite-phased 120V breakers is not allowed because of the safety concerns, even if it does work.

On the other hand, running two 120V branches from a 240V breaker seems safe. I don't know if it's allowed by code, probably not, it could make diagnosing trips more difficult.

Friendly regards, Bob

________________________________________
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of Harold Hallikainen
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 9:59 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [EE] Connecting european device to US main.

I agree that phase to phase will give 240 V (unless you're on a 3 phase
wye, in which case it will be 208 V). Most electronic devices now have
"universal" power supplies that work from something like 100 V to 260 V.

One thought on doing a phase to phase connection is the loss of
overcurrent protection. I think pretty much everything only fuses the hot
side of the power line. That guarantees no high voltage in a device that
blows a fuse (blowing a fuse in the neutral would remove an overcurrent
load but leave line voltage in the device). But, if operating phase to
phase, what about a "neutral" to ground short? There would be no
overcurrent protection at the device (just the branch circuit protection).

I have thought of powering audio equipment that has a universal power
supply from 240 V phase to phase to provide it with "balanced power" that
results in a cancellation of ground leakage current due to the EMI filter
Y capacitors. But, I am concerned about a lack of protection  on one side
of the line.

Harold

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Re: [EE] Connecting european device to US main.

Harold Hallikainen-3
I agree that the breaker panel would take down both phases. I was
commenting (perhaps unclearly!) on the circuit protection within the
device. I have only seen fuses on the hot lead and not the neutral (in
fact, a fuse on the neutral MAY be disallowed since it might blow first
with an overload leaving high voltage in the device).

Harold



> Hi Harold,
>
> If you look at a residential North American breaker panel, you'll see lots
> of single circuit breakers for 120V circuits, and some wide 240V breakers
> that grab both busbars. The 240V breakers disconnect both phases even if
> only one phase causes the trip. It's a code requirement.
>
> Drawing a 240V load from two opposite-phased 120V breakers is not allowed
> because of the safety concerns, even if it does work.
>
> On the other hand, running two 120V branches from a 240V breaker seems
> safe. I don't know if it's allowed by code, probably not, it could make
> diagnosing trips more difficult.
>
> Friendly regards, Bob
>
> ________________________________________
> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of
> Harold Hallikainen
> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 9:59 AM
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
> Subject: Re: [EE] Connecting european device to US main.
>
> I agree that phase to phase will give 240 V (unless you're on a 3 phase
> wye, in which case it will be 208 V). Most electronic devices now have
> "universal" power supplies that work from something like 100 V to 260 V.
>
> One thought on doing a phase to phase connection is the loss of
> overcurrent protection. I think pretty much everything only fuses the hot
> side of the power line. That guarantees no high voltage in a device that
> blows a fuse (blowing a fuse in the neutral would remove an overcurrent
> load but leave line voltage in the device). But, if operating phase to
> phase, what about a "neutral" to ground short? There would be no
> overcurrent protection at the device (just the branch circuit protection).
>
> I have thought of powering audio equipment that has a universal power
> supply from 240 V phase to phase to provide it with "balanced power" that
> results in a cancellation of ground leakage current due to the EMI filter
> Y capacitors. But, I am concerned about a lack of protection  on one side
> of the line.
>
> Harold
>
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>


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RE: [EE] Connecting european device to US main.

David Van Horn
Yup, only fuse hot!

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email: [hidden email] 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Harold Hallikainen
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 11:59 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [EE] Connecting european device to US main.

*WARNING*: This email originated from outside of the company. Lookout for fake addresses and websites. Do not click on any links or open attachments unless you can recognize and verify the sender and know that the content is safe.


I agree that the breaker panel would take down both phases. I was commenting (perhaps unclearly!) on the circuit protection within the device. I have only seen fuses on the hot lead and not the neutral (in fact, a fuse on the neutral MAY be disallowed since it might blow first with an overload leaving high voltage in the device).

Harold



> Hi Harold,
>
> If you look at a residential North American breaker panel, you'll see
> lots of single circuit breakers for 120V circuits, and some wide 240V
> breakers that grab both busbars. The 240V breakers disconnect both
> phases even if only one phase causes the trip. It's a code requirement.
>
> Drawing a 240V load from two opposite-phased 120V breakers is not
> allowed because of the safety concerns, even if it does work.
>
> On the other hand, running two 120V branches from a 240V breaker seems
> safe. I don't know if it's allowed by code, probably not, it could
> make diagnosing trips more difficult.
>
> Friendly regards, Bob
>
> ________________________________________
> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of
> Harold Hallikainen
> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 9:59 AM
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
> Subject: Re: [EE] Connecting european device to US main.
>
> I agree that phase to phase will give 240 V (unless you're on a 3
> phase wye, in which case it will be 208 V). Most electronic devices
> now have "universal" power supplies that work from something like 100 V to 260 V.
>
> One thought on doing a phase to phase connection is the loss of
> overcurrent protection. I think pretty much everything only fuses the
> hot side of the power line. That guarantees no high voltage in a
> device that blows a fuse (blowing a fuse in the neutral would remove
> an overcurrent load but leave line voltage in the device). But, if
> operating phase to phase, what about a "neutral" to ground short?
> There would be no overcurrent protection at the device (just the branch circuit protection).
>
> I have thought of powering audio equipment that has a universal power
> supply from 240 V phase to phase to provide it with "balanced power"
> that results in a cancellation of ground leakage current due to the
> EMI filter Y capacitors. But, I am concerned about a lack of
> protection  on one side of the line.
>
> Harold
>
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>


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Re: [EE] Connecting european device to US main.

peter green-2
In reply to this post by Harold Hallikainen-3
On 26/01/2021 17:59, Harold Hallikainen wrote:
> One thought on doing a phase to phase connection is the loss of
> overcurrent protection. I think pretty much everything only fuses the hot
> side of the power line. That guarantees no high voltage in a device that
> blows a fuse (blowing a fuse in the neutral would remove an overcurrent
> load but leave line voltage in the device). But, if operating phase to
> phase, what about a "neutral" to ground short? There would be no
> overcurrent protection at the device (just the branch circuit protection).

The same is true if the device happens to be plugged in with live and
neutral reversed.

If the manufacturer feels that additional protection against shorts
to ground is needed beyond that provided by the upstream protection
then they should be fitting that protection in both the "live" and
the "neutral".


 > I have thought of powering audio equipment that has a universal power
 > supply from 240 V phase to phase to provide it with "balanced power" that
 > results in a cancellation of ground leakage current due to the EMI filter
 > Y capacitors. But, I am concerned about a lack of protection  on one side
 > of the line.

In my experience, most audio equipment is class 2 anyway.
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Re: [EE] Connecting european device to US main.

Carlos Marcano
Thanks all for the great advice, as usual!

I think we are moving forward with a transformer to keep it safe, for this
arrangement.

Best regards,

Carlos.

El mar, 26 de ene. de 2021 a la(s) 13:15, peter green ([hidden email])
escribió:

> On 26/01/2021 17:59, Harold Hallikainen wrote:
> > One thought on doing a phase to phase connection is the loss of
> > overcurrent protection. I think pretty much everything only fuses the hot
> > side of the power line. That guarantees no high voltage in a device that
> > blows a fuse (blowing a fuse in the neutral would remove an overcurrent
> > load but leave line voltage in the device). But, if operating phase to
> > phase, what about a "neutral" to ground short? There would be no
> > overcurrent protection at the device (just the branch circuit
> protection).
>
> The same is true if the device happens to be plugged in with live and
> neutral reversed.
>
> If the manufacturer feels that additional protection against shorts
> to ground is needed beyond that provided by the upstream protection
> then they should be fitting that protection in both the "live" and
> the "neutral".
>
>
>  > I have thought of powering audio equipment that has a universal power
>  > supply from 240 V phase to phase to provide it with "balanced power"
> that
>  > results in a cancellation of ground leakage current due to the EMI
> filter
>  > Y capacitors. But, I am concerned about a lack of protection  on one
> side
>  > of the line.
>
> In my experience, most audio equipment is class 2 anyway.
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Re: [EE] Connecting european device to US main.

Harold Hallikainen-3
In reply to this post by peter green-2
Looking around a bit, I found this:

https://incompliancemag.com/article/double-fusing-or-fusing-both-sides-of-the-line/
explains different fusing concepts but does not specifically say what is
required in a particular country.

https://www.powerelectronictips.com/tdk-lambda-dont-fuse-the-neutral-wire-faq/
says double fusing is prohibited some types of equipment.

I don't have access to a copy of IEC 62368-1, so I can't see if double
fusing is permitted in typical products.

Harold


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Re: [EE] Connecting european device to US main.

Bob Blick-5
In reply to this post by Harold Hallikainen-3
Hi Harold,
I think it would be OK to run a 100-240V device on North American residential 240V. If the single fuse within the device opened, the AC is still contained within the device.
Friendly regards, Bob

________________________________________
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of Harold Hallikainen
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 10:58 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [EE] Connecting european device to US main.

I agree that the breaker panel would take down both phases. I was
commenting (perhaps unclearly!) on the circuit protection within the
device. I have only seen fuses on the hot lead and not the neutral (in
fact, a fuse on the neutral MAY be disallowed since it might blow first
with an overload leaving high voltage in the device).

Harold


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Re: [EE] Connecting european device to US main.

Harold Hallikainen-3

> Hi Harold,
> I think it would be OK to run a 100-240V device on North American
> residential 240V. If the single fuse within the device opened, the AC is
> still contained within the device.
> Friendly regards, Bob

Yes, but a "neutral" to ground short would not be protected if the
"neutral" was on a phase. It is still protected by the branch circuit
breaker, though. But if we could rely on that, no equipment would need
fuses...

Harold
https://w6iwi.org



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Re: [EE] Connecting european device to US main.

Isaac Marino Bavaresco-2


Em 26 de janeiro de 2021 18:01:24 BRT, Harold Hallikainen <[hidden email]> escreveu:

>
>> Hi Harold,
>> I think it would be OK to run a 100-240V device on North American
>> residential 240V. If the single fuse within the device opened, the AC
>is
>> still contained within the device.
>> Friendly regards, Bob
>
>Yes, but a "neutral" to ground short would not be protected if the
>"neutral" was on a phase. It is still protected by the branch circuit
>breaker, though. But if we could rely on that, no equipment would need
>fuses...
>
>Harold
>https://w6iwi.org
>
>
>
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Circuit breakers are for protecting the building's wiring and avoiding fires.

Each equipment have its own safety limits and no circuit breaker can protect every possible equipment equally.
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Re: [EE] Connecting european device to US main.

Richard Prosser
If connecting phase - phase on a US system, you will trip any earth leakage
breaker fitted as there will be no neutral current.
RP

On Wed, 27 Jan 2021 at 11:08, Isaac Marino Bavaresco <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Em 26 de janeiro de 2021 18:01:24 BRT, Harold Hallikainen <
> [hidden email]> escreveu:
> >
> >> Hi Harold,
> >> I think it would be OK to run a 100-240V device on North American
> >> residential 240V. If the single fuse within the device opened, the AC
> >is
> >> still contained within the device.
> >> Friendly regards, Bob
> >
> >Yes, but a "neutral" to ground short would not be protected if the
> >"neutral" was on a phase. It is still protected by the branch circuit
> >breaker, though. But if we could rely on that, no equipment would need
> >fuses...
> >
> >Harold
> >https://w6iwi.org
> >
> >
> >
> >--
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> >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>
> Circuit breakers are for protecting the building's wiring and avoiding
> fires.
>
> Each equipment have its own safety limits and no circuit breaker can
> protect every possible equipment equally.
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Re: [EE] Connecting european device to US main.

mailinglist4
In reply to this post by Harold Hallikainen-3
I'm curious about this.

For a device expecting a 'hot' and a neutral, the fuse will be in line
with the hot, with the expectation that the return path is the 'neutral'
(and an internal fault path to ground would also blow the fuse, if
applicable).

 From the devices' perspective though, whether that 'neutral' is
actually a neutral (bonded to earth at some point down the wire), or a
free floating 'hot' doesn't really matter. The device shouldn't be
bonding it's neutral to ground, that should only be done at the panel
(if at all).

Another poster mentioned (which is also my experience) that having two
'hots' in Europe (or an un-bonded to ground 'neutral') isn't uncommon in
some parts of Europe, and devices meant for the whole European market
need to be OK with that.

On 2021-01-26 13:58, Harold Hallikainen wrote:

> I agree that the breaker panel would take down both phases. I was
> commenting (perhaps unclearly!) on the circuit protection within the
> device. I have only seen fuses on the hot lead and not the neutral (in
> fact, a fuse on the neutral MAY be disallowed since it might blow first
> with an overload leaving high voltage in the device).
>
> Harold
>
>
>
>> Hi Harold,
>>
>> If you look at a residential North American breaker panel, you'll see lots
>> of single circuit breakers for 120V circuits, and some wide 240V breakers
>> that grab both busbars. The 240V breakers disconnect both phases even if
>> only one phase causes the trip. It's a code requirement.
>>
>> Drawing a 240V load from two opposite-phased 120V breakers is not allowed
>> because of the safety concerns, even if it does work.
>>
>> On the other hand, running two 120V branches from a 240V breaker seems
>> safe. I don't know if it's allowed by code, probably not, it could make
>> diagnosing trips more difficult.
>>
>> Friendly regards, Bob
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of
>> Harold Hallikainen
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 9:59 AM
>> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
>> Subject: Re: [EE] Connecting european device to US main.
>>
>> I agree that phase to phase will give 240 V (unless you're on a 3 phase
>> wye, in which case it will be 208 V). Most electronic devices now have
>> "universal" power supplies that work from something like 100 V to 260 V.
>>
>> One thought on doing a phase to phase connection is the loss of
>> overcurrent protection. I think pretty much everything only fuses the hot
>> side of the power line. That guarantees no high voltage in a device that
>> blows a fuse (blowing a fuse in the neutral would remove an overcurrent
>> load but leave line voltage in the device). But, if operating phase to
>> phase, what about a "neutral" to ground short? There would be no
>> overcurrent protection at the device (just the branch circuit protection).
>>
>> I have thought of powering audio equipment that has a universal power
>> supply from 240 V phase to phase to provide it with "balanced power" that
>> results in a cancellation of ground leakage current due to the EMI filter
>> Y capacitors. But, I am concerned about a lack of protection  on one side
>> of the line.
>>
>> Harold
>>
>> --
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>> View/change your membership options at
>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>>
>
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Re: [EE] Connecting european device to US main.

mailinglist4
In reply to this post by Richard Prosser

On 2021-01-26 18:07, Richard Prosser wrote:
> If connecting phase - phase on a US system, you will trip any earth leakage
> breaker fitted as there will be no neutral current.
> RP

I don't see how that could possibly be true. There are many 220V
appliances out there that don't even have a neutral connector on their plug.

For example my AC unit only has the two hots going to to, no neutral
conductor at all.

220V appliances only have a neutral connection if, as part of their
function, they need a 120V supply as well. For example stoves might have
a 120V outlet on them, or the control circuitry might run on 120V.

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Re: [EE] Connecting european device to US main.

Harold Hallikainen-3

>
> On 2021-01-26 18:07, Richard Prosser wrote:
>> If connecting phase - phase on a US system, you will trip any earth
>> leakage
>> breaker fitted as there will be no neutral current.
>> RP
>
> I don't see how that could possibly be true. There are many 220V
> appliances out there that don't even have a neutral connector on their
> plug.

In the US, GFCIs are typically required in wet areas (kitchen, bathroom,
outdoors) and are 120VAC. I suppose 220VAC GFCIs exist, but I suspect they
are quite rare. But, as Richard pointed out, connecting phase to phase
after 120VAC GFCIs will trip the GFCI since it they look for a difference
between line and neutral.

Summarizing all this, I think you can run European 230VAC equipment from
US 240VAC (phase to phase), but am concerned about a lack of overcurrent
protection in the equipment on one of the lines (that was neutral).

Harold




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