[EE]:HP 6000 scopes with crippleware....

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[EE]:HP 6000 scopes with crippleware....

Mike Harrison
Just been looking at the new HP 6000 series scopes.
Very nice kit but something bugs me about the upgrade path....

The DSO6034A has 4 analogue channels and lists at $7229.
The MSO60634A adds 16 digital channels and lists at $9029

However looking at the detail, the DSO version has all the hardware of the MSO version, but the
functionality is disabled in the software.
You can upgrade the DSO to the MSO for $1800, for which you get a cable and a licence code.

OK, you may argue that you're getting additional functionality. But $1800 for a cable doesn't
exactly give a warm happy feeling of having got good value....
At least the upgrade cost is the same as the price difference between the models.

However if you look at the memory options, you see that when you buy either of these scopes, you are
actually buying 8M of memory, however only 1M of it is enabled.
To "Upgrade", you need to pay $495 or $995 to upgrade to 2 or 8M respectively.

You have already bought 8M of memory but are being asked to pay $999 for permission to use hardware
you already own.. (I see this as different to the MSO upgrade, as there is no additional software
involved.)
 
Maybe I'm just thinking in an old fashioned way but this strikes me as a bit of a rip-off....
 
Comments...?

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Re: [EE]:HP 6000 scopes with crippleware....

Bob Blick
> However if you look at the memory options, you see that when you buy
> either of these scopes, you are
> actually buying 8M of memory, however only 1M of it is enabled.
> To "Upgrade", you need to pay $495 or $995 to upgrade to 2 or 8M
> respectively.

You probably have to enable the memory within a certain time period, or
the extra memory will go "stale", just like their newer ink cartridges
that have a builtin expiration date. HP sucks.

-Bob


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Re: [EE]:HP 6000 scopes with crippleware....

Charles Craft
In reply to this post by Mike Harrison
Look up "Capacity On Demand" or iCOD on the web.

IBM did it with their main frames and it was rumored that DEC did it with VAX microcode.

Hardware costs mouse nuts now so the value add has to be functionality or capacity.


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Harrison <[hidden email]>
Sent: Jun 13, 2005 11:51 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [EE]:HP 6000 scopes with crippleware....

Just been looking at the new HP 6000 series scopes.
Very nice kit but something bugs me about the upgrade path....

The DSO6034A has 4 analogue channels and lists at $7229.
The MSO60634A adds 16 digital channels and lists at $9029

However looking at the detail, the DSO version has all the hardware of the MSO version, but the
functionality is disabled in the software.
You can upgrade the DSO to the MSO for $1800, for which you get a cable and a licence code.

OK, you may argue that you're getting additional functionality. But $1800 for a cable doesn't
exactly give a warm happy feeling of having got good value....
At least the upgrade cost is the same as the price difference between the models.

However if you look at the memory options, you see that when you buy either of these scopes, you are
actually buying 8M of memory, however only 1M of it is enabled.
To "Upgrade", you need to pay $495 or $995 to upgrade to 2 or 8M respectively.

You have already bought 8M of memory but are being asked to pay $999 for permission to use hardware
you already own.. (I see this as different to the MSO upgrade, as there is no additional software
involved.)
 
Maybe I'm just thinking in an old fashioned way but this strikes me as a bit of a rip-off....
 
Comments...?

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Re: [EE]:HP 6000 scopes with crippleware....

Joe Farr
In reply to this post by Mike Harrison
I look on it this way.
 If HP want $9000 for a product, but they are prepared to sell me a cut down
version for $7000 that meets my needs, then lucky me. I've just saved $2000.
Later on, if I need those extra features, theres an upgrade path...
 It's like PCB design software. They want more money for bigger board areas
- but it's the same software except for some INI file type settings...
 Joe.
 
 On 6/13/05, Joe Farr <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Just been looking at the new HP 6000 series scopes.
> Very nice kit but something bugs me about the upgrade path....
>
> The DSO6034A has 4 analogue channels and lists at $7229.
> The MSO60634A adds 16 digital channels and lists at $9029
>
> However looking at the detail, the DSO version has all the hardware of the
> MSO version, but the
> functionality is disabled in the software.
> You can upgrade the DSO to the MSO for $1800, for which you get a cable
> and a licence code.
>
> OK, you may argue that you're getting additional functionality. But $1800
> for a cable doesn't
> exactly give a warm happy feeling of having got good value....
> At least the upgrade cost is the same as the price difference between the
> models.
>
> However if you look at the memory options, you see that when you buy
> either of these scopes, you are
> actually buying 8M of memory, however only 1M of it is enabled.
> To "Upgrade", you need to pay $495 or $995 to upgrade to 2 or 8M
> respectively.
>
> You have already bought 8M of memory but are being asked to pay $999 for
> permission to use hardware
> you already own.. (I see this as different to the MSO upgrade, as there is
> no additional software
> involved.)
>
> Maybe I'm just thinking in an old fashioned way but this strikes me as a
> bit of a rip-off....
>
> Comments...?
>
> --
> http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>
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Re: [EE]:HP 6000 scopes with crippleware....

Dave VanHorn
In reply to this post by Bob Blick
At 11:04 AM 6/13/2005, Bob Blick wrote:
> > However if you look at the memory options, you see that when you buy
> > either of these scopes, you are
> > actually buying 8M of memory, however only 1M of it is enabled.
> > To "Upgrade", you need to pay $495 or $995 to upgrade to 2 or 8M
> > respectively.
>
>You probably have to enable the memory within a certain time period, or
>the extra memory will go "stale", just like their newer ink cartridges
>that have a builtin expiration date. HP sucks.

I guess some of the printer guys stayed on the agilent side.

Well, there's always TEK.

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Re: [EE]:HP 6000 scopes with crippleware....

Mike Harrison
In reply to this post by Joe Farr
On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:20:15 +0100, you wrote:

>I look on it this way.
> If HP want $9000 for a product, but they are prepared to sell me a cut down
>version for $7000 that meets my needs, then lucky me. I've just saved $2000.
>Later on, if I need those extra features, theres an upgrade path...
> It's like PCB design software. They want more money for bigger board areas
>- but it's the same software except for some INI file type settings...
> Joe.

Although looking at it the other way round though :
If HP can make and sell a scope with all the bells and whistles for $7000, they can trounce the
competition and more, happier customers.
Unfortunately this end of the scope market is effectively a tri-opoly with Tek and LeCroy, so
probably small enough that they can all keep prices high. Even if a new company came along with
something better and cheaper, there would be a pretty unassailable credibility gap to overcome with
these long-established companies.
 

> On 6/13/05, Joe Farr <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Just been looking at the new HP 6000 series scopes.
>> Very nice kit but something bugs me about the upgrade path....
>>
>> The DSO6034A has 4 analogue channels and lists at $7229.
>> The MSO60634A adds 16 digital channels and lists at $9029
>>
>> However looking at the detail, the DSO version has all the hardware of the
>> MSO version, but the
>> functionality is disabled in the software.
>> You can upgrade the DSO to the MSO for $1800, for which you get a cable
>> and a licence code.
>>
>> OK, you may argue that you're getting additional functionality. But $1800
>> for a cable doesn't
>> exactly give a warm happy feeling of having got good value....
>> At least the upgrade cost is the same as the price difference between the
>> models.
>>
>> However if you look at the memory options, you see that when you buy
>> either of these scopes, you are
>> actually buying 8M of memory, however only 1M of it is enabled.
>> To "Upgrade", you need to pay $495 or $995 to upgrade to 2 or 8M
>> respectively.
>>
>> You have already bought 8M of memory but are being asked to pay $999 for
>> permission to use hardware
>> you already own.. (I see this as different to the MSO upgrade, as there is
>> no additional software
>> involved.)
>>
>> Maybe I'm just thinking in an old fashioned way but this strikes me as a
>> bit of a rip-off....
>>
>> Comments...?
>>
>> --
>> http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
>> View/change your membership options at
>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>>


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Re: [EE]:HP 6000 scopes with crippleware....

Phil B-2
In reply to this post by Mike Harrison
this is a pretty well worn practice in the industry.
the reasoning goes that customers expect a range of
products and don't want to pay for features they don't
need.  so, the company will create a lower end product
that is a "feature reduction" of the main product.
You see it in software all the time though its easy to
build a version with out the "pro" features - Foo
Design Lite vs Foo Design Pro.  People don't seem to
complain about this practice with SW.

The cynic in me says that the lower price point is a
"come on" product and the goal is to extract as much
revenue from price insensitive customers who always
want "only the best".  I'm sure there is some MBA at
HP, er Agitate er what ever, that has a PowerPoint
chart showing the marginal added profit from selling
the "pro" version and how 1/3 or so of the customers
always opt for the higher price point product,
regardless of the features.

The good news for consumers is that the competitors
have a great opportunity to slide well under the
leader's price point and take market share away.

--- Mike Harrison <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Just been looking at the new HP 6000 series scopes.
> Very nice kit but something bugs me about the
> upgrade path....
>
> The DSO6034A has 4 analogue channels and lists at
> $7229.
> The MSO60634A adds 16 digital channels and lists at
> $9029
>
> However looking at the detail, the DSO version has
> all the hardware of the MSO version, but the
> functionality is disabled in the software.
> You can upgrade the DSO to the MSO for $1800, for
> which you get a cable and a licence code.
>
> OK, you may argue that you're getting additional
> functionality. But $1800 for a cable doesn't
> exactly give a warm happy feeling of having got good
> value....
> At least the upgrade cost is the same as the price
> difference between the models.
>
> However if you look at the memory options, you see
> that when you buy either of these scopes, you are
> actually buying 8M of memory, however only 1M of it
> is enabled.
> To "Upgrade", you need to pay $495 or $995 to
> upgrade to 2 or 8M respectively.
>
> You have already bought 8M of memory but are being
> asked to pay $999 for permission to use hardware
> you already own.. (I see this as different to the
> MSO upgrade, as there is no additional software
> involved.)
>  
> Maybe I'm just thinking in an old fashioned way but
> this strikes me as a bit of a rip-off....
>  
> Comments...?
>
> --
> http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>



               
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Re: [EE]:HP 6000 scopes with crippleware....

Olin Lathrop
In reply to this post by Bob Blick
Bob Blick wrote:
> You probably have to enable the memory within a certain time period, or
> the extra memory will go "stale", just like their newer ink cartridges
> that have a builtin expiration date. HP sucks.

Aren't we talking about two different companies here?  The printer folks are
from the dark side of the HP split, until recently run by Darth Fiorina and
the other Sith.  I thought scopes went to Agilent, or is there some remnant
that's still part of HP?

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RE: [EE]:HP 6000 scopes with crippleware....

Wouter van Ooijen
In reply to this post by Mike Harrison
> OK, you may argue that you're getting additional
> functionality. But $1800 for a cable doesn't
> exactly give a warm happy feeling of having got good value....
> At least the upgrade cost is the same as the price difference
> between the models.

What's the difference with software for which the price buys you the
license key? The $$$ you pay for let's say Microsoft Windows is wierd
compared to the price of the CD and the key-code sticker. But of course
that is not what you buy: you buy the right to use software that has
cost $$$$$$$ to develop. (MsBashing mode on: maybe it should have been
one extra $ and less bugs :)

Wouter van Ooijen

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RE: [OT]:HP 6000 scopes with crippleware....

Steven W
My dad used to work for Honeywell...

One of their customers bought a computer that was about the size of 4 chest
freezers.

Long story short: they eventually paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for
a "memory upgrade" and were fuming pissed when the tech that came in to
install their upgrade opened a panel on the side of the computer and cut a
wire.

IP law is here to stay - and I don't know about you, but it's paying my
bills - and it's often enforced with a "stupid cable".

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Wouter van Ooijen
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 2:20 PM
To: 'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.'
Subject: RE: [EE]:HP 6000 scopes with crippleware....

> OK, you may argue that you're getting additional
> functionality. But $1800 for a cable doesn't
> exactly give a warm happy feeling of having got good value....
> At least the upgrade cost is the same as the price difference
> between the models.

What's the difference with software for which the price buys you the
license key? The $$$ you pay for let's say Microsoft Windows is wierd
compared to the price of the CD and the key-code sticker. But of course
that is not what you buy: you buy the right to use software that has
cost $$$$$$$ to develop. (MsBashing mode on: maybe it should have been
one extra $ and less bugs :)

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
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RE: [OT]:HP 6000 scopes with crippleware....

Lindy Mayfield
In reply to this post by Mike Harrison
Sorry, but I don't get it.  You pay for a computer with 1 meg of memory, you get one.  You pay for 2 meg you get that.  What difference does it make how the company chooses to implement this?  Perhaps the customer should have been happy that their huge computer didn't have to be completely replaced.  

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steven W
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 20:54
To: 'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.'
Subject: RE: [OT]:HP 6000 scopes with crippleware....

My dad used to work for Honeywell...

One of their customers bought a computer that was about the size of 4 chest
freezers.

Long story short: they eventually paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for
a "memory upgrade" and were fuming pissed when the tech that came in to
install their upgrade opened a panel on the side of the computer and cut a
wire.

IP law is here to stay - and I don't know about you, but it's paying my
bills - and it's often enforced with a "stupid cable".

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Wouter van Ooijen
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 2:20 PM
To: 'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.'
Subject: RE: [EE]:HP 6000 scopes with crippleware....

> OK, you may argue that you're getting additional
> functionality. But $1800 for a cable doesn't
> exactly give a warm happy feeling of having got good value....
> At least the upgrade cost is the same as the price difference
> between the models.

What's the difference with software for which the price buys you the
license key? The $$$ you pay for let's say Microsoft Windows is wierd
compared to the price of the CD and the key-code sticker. But of course
that is not what you buy: you buy the right to use software that has
cost $$$$$$$ to develop. (MsBashing mode on: maybe it should have been
one extra $ and less bugs :)

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
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docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: www.voti.nl/hvu
 

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Re: [EE]:HP 6000 scopes with crippleware....

Dave VanHorn
In reply to this post by Olin Lathrop
At 01:09 PM 6/13/2005, Olin Lathrop wrote:
>Bob Blick wrote:
>>You probably have to enable the memory within a certain time period, or
>>the extra memory will go "stale", just like their newer ink cartridges
>>that have a builtin expiration date. HP sucks.
>
>Aren't we talking about two different companies here?  The printer folks are
>from the dark side of the HP split, until recently run by Darth Fiorina and
>the other Sith.  I thought scopes went to Agilent, or is there some remnant
>that's still part of HP?

I think agilent has some remanant infection.

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RE: [OT]:HP 6000 scopes with crippleware....

Dave VanHorn
In reply to this post by Lindy Mayfield
At 02:04 PM 6/13/2005, Lindy Mayfield wrote:
>Sorry, but I don't get it.  You pay for a computer with 1 meg of
>memory, you get one.  You pay for 2 meg you get that.  What
>difference does it make how the company chooses to implement
>this?  Perhaps the customer should have been happy that their huge
>computer didn't have to be completely replaced.

OTOH, maybe some enterprising tech will come up with a hack.

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RE: [OT]:HP 6000 scopes with crippleware....

Lindy Mayfield
In reply to this post by Mike Harrison
Like a hack saw to cut through the lock on my neighbors bicycle so I can steal it? (-: Ok, not quite the same thing, but according to the licensing agreements for use of the computer, I would bet it is very similar.  

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dave VanHorn
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 21:21
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.; Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: RE: [OT]:HP 6000 scopes with crippleware....

At 02:04 PM 6/13/2005, Lindy Mayfield wrote:
>Sorry, but I don't get it.  You pay for a computer with 1 meg of
>memory, you get one.  You pay for 2 meg you get that.  What
>difference does it make how the company chooses to implement
>this?  Perhaps the customer should have been happy that their huge
>computer didn't have to be completely replaced.

OTOH, maybe some enterprising tech will come up with a hack.

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RE: [OT]:HP 6000 scopes with crippleware....

Dave VanHorn
At 02:41 PM 6/13/2005, Lindy Mayfield wrote:
>Like a hack saw to cut through the lock on my neighbors bicycle so I
>can steal it? (-: Ok, not quite the same thing, but according to the
>licensing agreements for use of the computer, I would bet it is very similar.

Like a hacksaw to cut the lock on the back tire of the bicycle you
own, where the maker only allows you to use the front tire.

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RE: [EE]:HP 6000 scopes with crippleware....

James Newtons Massmind
In reply to this post by Mike Harrison
> You can upgrade the DSO to the MSO for $1800, for which you
> get a cable and a licence code.

The only thing I can say for sure is that there WILL be a black market for
license codes and a lot of "replacement" cables for the MSO will be
purchased.

---
James.
 


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Share bugfree Microchip CANBUS C18-Lib ?

Info-1241
Hi, as I am struggling to try to learn C and in the process also howto use
the CANbus. Now, Ive read that there are bugs in the CAN lib.
I have enough problems with C alone, w/o bugs in the core-can-lib.

If someone would like to share a fixed version of the CAN-lib we could
ask James to put the bugfixed version on www.piclist.com ?


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Re: [EE]:HP 6000 scopes with crippleware....

Mike Harrison
In reply to this post by James Newtons Massmind
On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:50:22 -0700, you wrote:

>> You can upgrade the DSO to the MSO for $1800, for which you
>> get a cable and a licence code.
>
>The only thing I can say for sure is that there WILL be a black market for
>license codes and a lot of "replacement" cables for the MSO will be
>purchased.

I would imagine that the license codes are tied to the scope serial number - if not, then I suspect
upgrade sales will be pretty slack...!




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RE: [OT]:HP 6000 scopes with crippleware....

Alan Smith-10
In reply to this post by Lindy Mayfield
My .02 worth on this
 
Put yourself in thier shoes.
 
You spend millions to develop a product, where it can do amazing things.  Is anyone going to buy it for what it cost to design, debug, build, and market?
 
Nope
 
So you sell it for what the market bears.  And you hope that you can sell it for enough, and also sell enough of them,  to eventually recoup the investment that was made.
 
However, alot of customers don't need the extra features that the enterprising engineers built into the product, enabled by a new flash of software or reload....
 
So, you say.....customer...you want that feature, its going to cost you this much more and you dump a new load down.  The few thousand it costs, offsets the overall product costs so they can develop the scope that runs at 1G-GHz next time....
 
I'm quite sure that most of us that do development have in the past, taken hardware and did an upgrade for a feature set that a customer wanted and charged a premium for it.  How else do we stay in business if we don't?
 
Oh...and someone commented on a black market for the license keys? I doubt it.  The market isnt that big, and most companies now would rather pay the few thousand in license fee than the multithousands in legal fees if ever found it was using an illegal copy.
 
 
oh.....we dont use agilent equipment.....but the 30,000 Tek scopes are rather nice...

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RE: [OT]:HP 6000 scopes with crippleware....

Phil B-2
--- alan smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
...
>  
> Oh...and someone commented on a black market for the
> license keys? I doubt it.  The market isnt that big,
> and most companies now would rather pay the few
> thousand in license fee than the multithousands in
> legal fees if ever found it was using an illegal
> copy.

more like not wanting to void the warrantee or
maintenance contract (void avoidance?) - few companies
are going risk their investment with blackmarket
stuff.    If it really is just a cable, the legality
issue is highly debatable, imo.


               
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