[EE]: How to find & hire firmware people

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[EE]: How to find & hire firmware people

Denny Esterline-2
The company I work for really needs to bring on at least one more
developer. So far, I've been very disappointed in the applicant pool. It
seems that no matter what we put in the job description, 99% of the
applicants have zero experience with a microcontroller. Even when I include
something obnoxious in the job posting like the following:

To be considered for this position, you must have an intimate understanding
of the inner workings of a microcontroller, and the ability to write
software on "bare metal" (OS-less) systems. In the interview, you can
expect to be asked questions about registers, memory maps, ADCs, interrupt
processing, timers, compiler theory, and state machines.
I get nothing but web developers and Java programmers.

So, my question to you fine people, How and where do you find firmware
people?

-Denny
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Re: [EE]: How to find & hire firmware people

Manu Abraham-2
Maybe you should have included:

"the candidates are mandated to be fluent and well versed with Assembly and C,
no Web and Java programmers, please. Knowledge of Electronics, a Plus!
Shortlisted candidates will be writing firmware drivers, between
breakfast and dinner."

:-D

Cheers

On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 1:44 AM Denny Esterline <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> The company I work for really needs to bring on at least one more
> developer. So far, I've been very disappointed in the applicant pool. It
> seems that no matter what we put in the job description, 99% of the
> applicants have zero experience with a microcontroller. Even when I include
> something obnoxious in the job posting like the following:
>
> To be considered for this position, you must have an intimate understanding
> of the inner workings of a microcontroller, and the ability to write
> software on "bare metal" (OS-less) systems. In the interview, you can
> expect to be asked questions about registers, memory maps, ADCs, interrupt
> processing, timers, compiler theory, and state machines.
> I get nothing but web developers and Java programmers.
>
> So, my question to you fine people, How and where do you find firmware
> people?
>
> -Denny
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
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Re: [EE]: How to find & hire firmware people

Carlos Marcano
Hi Denny.

Maybe you should drop the job offer here under the [AD:] tag. If it is a
remote work job, you might get someone.

Regards,

Carlos.

El lun., 16 de nov. de 2020 a la(s) 14:45, Manu Abraham (
[hidden email]) escribió:

> Maybe you should have included:
>
> "the candidates are mandated to be fluent and well versed with Assembly
> and C,
> no Web and Java programmers, please. Knowledge of Electronics, a Plus!
> Shortlisted candidates will be writing firmware drivers, between
> breakfast and dinner."
>
> :-D
>
> Cheers
>
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 1:44 AM Denny Esterline <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > The company I work for really needs to bring on at least one more
> > developer. So far, I've been very disappointed in the applicant pool. It
> > seems that no matter what we put in the job description, 99% of the
> > applicants have zero experience with a microcontroller. Even when I
> include
> > something obnoxious in the job posting like the following:
> >
> > To be considered for this position, you must have an intimate
> understanding
> > of the inner workings of a microcontroller, and the ability to write
> > software on "bare metal" (OS-less) systems. In the interview, you can
> > expect to be asked questions about registers, memory maps, ADCs,
> interrupt
> > processing, timers, compiler theory, and state machines.
> > I get nothing but web developers and Java programmers.
> >
> > So, my question to you fine people, How and where do you find firmware
> > people?
> >
> > -Denny
> > --
> > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > View/change your membership options at
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>
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Re: [EE]: How to find & hire firmware people

James Cameron-2
In reply to this post by Denny Esterline-2
I don't get to see any firmware jobs advertised.

LinkedIn keeps offering me fluff [1].

Posting it here will increase the reach of your advertising ... and
could be interesting reading.

--

1.  like when you search for FAT filesystem standards and thenceforth
are offered diets and weight-loss products until you nuke the tracking
cookies.

--
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http://quozl.netrek.org/
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Re: [EE]: How to find & hire firmware people

Neil
In reply to this post by Denny Esterline-2
Yes, frustrating isn't it?  I've also had web developers apply for
embedded dev positions, and had welders apply for a soldering position.
This is the mentality that even their educational institutions
recommend... apply for everything and anything w/o even reading what
it's about.
I had always felt that the job posting sites need to start charging a
nominal fee to apply for each position.  Upwork does it, and IMO it works.

Either way, look at groups like this, or IIRC jack Ganselle's website or
newsletter has a job-posting section.  Or even look at sites like
upwork, which do have a way to hire employees (rather than just gigs).

Cheers,
-Neil.





On 11/16/2020 3:12 PM, Denny Esterline wrote:

> The company I work for really needs to bring on at least one more
> developer. So far, I've been very disappointed in the applicant pool. It
> seems that no matter what we put in the job description, 99% of the
> applicants have zero experience with a microcontroller. Even when I include
> something obnoxious in the job posting like the following:
>
> To be considered for this position, you must have an intimate understanding
> of the inner workings of a microcontroller, and the ability to write
> software on "bare metal" (OS-less) systems. In the interview, you can
> expect to be asked questions about registers, memory maps, ADCs, interrupt
> processing, timers, compiler theory, and state machines.
> I get nothing but web developers and Java programmers.
>
> So, my question to you fine people, How and where do you find firmware
> people?
>
> -Denny

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Re: [EE]: How to find & hire firmware people

David Van Horn
One applicant we had, insisted that they had significant experience with Altium.
Except they pronounced it "Atrium".

We were not impressed.

________________________________
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of Neil <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 10:00 PM
To: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [EE]: How to find & hire firmware people

Yes, frustrating isn't it?  I've also had web developers apply for
embedded dev positions, and had welders apply for a soldering position.
This is the mentality that even their educational institutions
recommend... apply for everything and anything w/o even reading what
it's about.
I had always felt that the job posting sites need to start charging a
nominal fee to apply for each position.  Upwork does it, and IMO it works.

Either way, look at groups like this, or IIRC jack Ganselle's website or
newsletter has a job-posting section.  Or even look at sites like
upwork, which do have a way to hire employees (rather than just gigs).

Cheers,
-Neil.





On 11/16/2020 3:12 PM, Denny Esterline wrote:

> The company I work for really needs to bring on at least one more
> developer. So far, I've been very disappointed in the applicant pool. It
> seems that no matter what we put in the job description, 99% of the
> applicants have zero experience with a microcontroller. Even when I include
> something obnoxious in the job posting like the following:
>
> To be considered for this position, you must have an intimate understanding
> of the inner workings of a microcontroller, and the ability to write
> software on "bare metal" (OS-less) systems. In the interview, you can
> expect to be asked questions about registers, memory maps, ADCs, interrupt
> processing, timers, compiler theory, and state machines.
> I get nothing but web developers and Java programmers.
>
> So, my question to you fine people, How and where do you find firmware
> people?
>
> -Denny

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Re: [EE]: How to find & hire firmware people

Manu Abraham-2
Hi David,

Rather than the pronunciation, it would've been much easier if you
asked them to do a project;
A fraction of the complexity that you need to achieve at your place
itself, like a real test.
(A fraction, since you need to see the results in a specific time
span, while evaluating personnel)

Sometimes, pronunciations could be misleading.
(I've come across software developers claiming years of experience who
could not count upto binary 3)

Cheers,
Manu


On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 6:09 PM David Van Horn
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> One applicant we had, insisted that they had significant experience with Altium.
> Except they pronounced it "Atrium".
>
> We were not impressed.
>
> ________________________________
> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of Neil <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 10:00 PM
> To: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EE]: How to find & hire firmware people
>
> Yes, frustrating isn't it?  I've also had web developers apply for
> embedded dev positions, and had welders apply for a soldering position.
> This is the mentality that even their educational institutions
> recommend... apply for everything and anything w/o even reading what
> it's about.
> I had always felt that the job posting sites need to start charging a
> nominal fee to apply for each position.  Upwork does it, and IMO it works.
>
> Either way, look at groups like this, or IIRC jack Ganselle's website or
> newsletter has a job-posting section.  Or even look at sites like
> upwork, which do have a way to hire employees (rather than just gigs).
>
> Cheers,
> -Neil.
>
>
>
>
>
> On 11/16/2020 3:12 PM, Denny Esterline wrote:
> > The company I work for really needs to bring on at least one more
> > developer. So far, I've been very disappointed in the applicant pool. It
> > seems that no matter what we put in the job description, 99% of the
> > applicants have zero experience with a microcontroller. Even when I include
> > something obnoxious in the job posting like the following:
> >
> > To be considered for this position, you must have an intimate understanding
> > of the inner workings of a microcontroller, and the ability to write
> > software on "bare metal" (OS-less) systems. In the interview, you can
> > expect to be asked questions about registers, memory maps, ADCs, interrupt
> > processing, timers, compiler theory, and state machines.
> > I get nothing but web developers and Java programmers.
> >
> > So, my question to you fine people, How and where do you find firmware
> > people?
> >
> > -Denny
>
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> --
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> View/change your membership options at
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Re: [EE]: How to find & hire firmware people

Clint Jay
I've bumped into all sorts of mispronounced tech terms, it doesn't inspire
confidence but they're often highly competent people.

Of course, the other caelse is also true, people  flanneling to make
themselves a more attractive hire, the proficiency test usually weeds them
out.

On Tue, 17 Nov 2020, 12:48 Manu Abraham, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi David,
>
> Rather than the pronunciation, it would've been much easier if you
> asked them to do a project;
> A fraction of the complexity that you need to achieve at your place
> itself, like a real test.
> (A fraction, since you need to see the results in a specific time
> span, while evaluating personnel)
>
> Sometimes, pronunciations could be misleading.
> (I've come across software developers claiming years of experience who
> could not count upto binary 3)
>
> Cheers,
> Manu
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 6:09 PM David Van Horn
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > One applicant we had, insisted that they had significant experience with
> Altium.
> > Except they pronounced it "Atrium".
> >
> > We were not impressed.
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of
> Neil <[hidden email]>
> > Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 10:00 PM
> > To: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
> > Subject: Re: [EE]: How to find & hire firmware people
> >
> > Yes, frustrating isn't it?  I've also had web developers apply for
> > embedded dev positions, and had welders apply for a soldering position.
> > This is the mentality that even their educational institutions
> > recommend... apply for everything and anything w/o even reading what
> > it's about.
> > I had always felt that the job posting sites need to start charging a
> > nominal fee to apply for each position.  Upwork does it, and IMO it
> works.
> >
> > Either way, look at groups like this, or IIRC jack Ganselle's website or
> > newsletter has a job-posting section.  Or even look at sites like
> > upwork, which do have a way to hire employees (rather than just gigs).
> >
> > Cheers,
> > -Neil.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 11/16/2020 3:12 PM, Denny Esterline wrote:
> > > The company I work for really needs to bring on at least one more
> > > developer. So far, I've been very disappointed in the applicant pool.
> It
> > > seems that no matter what we put in the job description, 99% of the
> > > applicants have zero experience with a microcontroller. Even when I
> include
> > > something obnoxious in the job posting like the following:
> > >
> > > To be considered for this position, you must have an intimate
> understanding
> > > of the inner workings of a microcontroller, and the ability to write
> > > software on "bare metal" (OS-less) systems. In the interview, you can
> > > expect to be asked questions about registers, memory maps, ADCs,
> interrupt
> > > processing, timers, compiler theory, and state machines.
> > > I get nothing but web developers and Java programmers.
> > >
> > > So, my question to you fine people, How and where do you find firmware
> > > people?
> > >
> > > -Denny
> >
> > --
> > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > View/change your membership options at
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> > --
> > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > View/change your membership options at
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>
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Re: [EE]: How to find & hire firmware people

Manu Abraham-2
Keyword = "flaneling"
:-D


On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 6:24 PM Clint Jay <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I've bumped into all sorts of mispronounced tech terms, it doesn't inspire
> confidence but they're often highly competent people.
>
> Of course, the other caelse is also true, people  flanneling to make
> themselves a more attractive hire, the proficiency test usually weeds them
> out.
>
> On Tue, 17 Nov 2020, 12:48 Manu Abraham, <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi David,
> >
> > Rather than the pronunciation, it would've been much easier if you
> > asked them to do a project;
> > A fraction of the complexity that you need to achieve at your place
> > itself, like a real test.
> > (A fraction, since you need to see the results in a specific time
> > span, while evaluating personnel)
> >
> > Sometimes, pronunciations could be misleading.
> > (I've come across software developers claiming years of experience who
> > could not count upto binary 3)
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Manu
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 6:09 PM David Van Horn
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > One applicant we had, insisted that they had significant experience with
> > Altium.
> > > Except they pronounced it "Atrium".
> > >
> > > We were not impressed.
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of
> > Neil <[hidden email]>
> > > Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 10:00 PM
> > > To: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
> > > Subject: Re: [EE]: How to find & hire firmware people
> > >
> > > Yes, frustrating isn't it?  I've also had web developers apply for
> > > embedded dev positions, and had welders apply for a soldering position.
> > > This is the mentality that even their educational institutions
> > > recommend... apply for everything and anything w/o even reading what
> > > it's about.
> > > I had always felt that the job posting sites need to start charging a
> > > nominal fee to apply for each position.  Upwork does it, and IMO it
> > works.
> > >
> > > Either way, look at groups like this, or IIRC jack Ganselle's website or
> > > newsletter has a job-posting section.  Or even look at sites like
> > > upwork, which do have a way to hire employees (rather than just gigs).
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > -Neil.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 11/16/2020 3:12 PM, Denny Esterline wrote:
> > > > The company I work for really needs to bring on at least one more
> > > > developer. So far, I've been very disappointed in the applicant pool.
> > It
> > > > seems that no matter what we put in the job description, 99% of the
> > > > applicants have zero experience with a microcontroller. Even when I
> > include
> > > > something obnoxious in the job posting like the following:
> > > >
> > > > To be considered for this position, you must have an intimate
> > understanding
> > > > of the inner workings of a microcontroller, and the ability to write
> > > > software on "bare metal" (OS-less) systems. In the interview, you can
> > > > expect to be asked questions about registers, memory maps, ADCs,
> > interrupt
> > > > processing, timers, compiler theory, and state machines.
> > > > I get nothing but web developers and Java programmers.
> > > >
> > > > So, my question to you fine people, How and where do you find firmware
> > > > people?
> > > >
> > > > -Denny
> > >
> > > --
> > > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > > View/change your membership options at
> > > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> > > --
> > > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > > View/change your membership options at
> > > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> > --
> > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > View/change your membership options at
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> >
> --
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RE: [EE]: How to find & hire firmware people

David Van Horn
In reply to this post by Manu Abraham-2
There were other clues as well, but that was the funniest.

--
David VanHorn
Lead Hardware Engineer

Backcountry Access, Inc.
2820 Wilderness Pl, Unit H
Boulder, CO  80301 USA
phone: 303-417-1345  x110
email: [hidden email] 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Manu Abraham
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 5:48 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [EE]: How to find & hire firmware people

Hi David,

Rather than the pronunciation, it would've been much easier if you asked them to do a project; A fraction of the complexity that you need to achieve at your place itself, like a real test.
(A fraction, since you need to see the results in a specific time span, while evaluating personnel)

Sometimes, pronunciations could be misleading.
(I've come across software developers claiming years of experience who could not count upto binary 3)

Cheers,
Manu


On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 6:09 PM David Van Horn <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> One applicant we had, insisted that they had significant experience with Altium.
> Except they pronounced it "Atrium".
>
> We were not impressed.
>
> ________________________________
> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of
> Neil <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 10:00 PM
> To: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EE]: How to find & hire firmware people
>
> Yes, frustrating isn't it?  I've also had web developers apply for
> embedded dev positions, and had welders apply for a soldering position.
> This is the mentality that even their educational institutions
> recommend... apply for everything and anything w/o even reading what
> it's about.
> I had always felt that the job posting sites need to start charging a
> nominal fee to apply for each position.  Upwork does it, and IMO it works.
>
> Either way, look at groups like this, or IIRC jack Ganselle's website
> or newsletter has a job-posting section.  Or even look at sites like
> upwork, which do have a way to hire employees (rather than just gigs).
>
> Cheers,
> -Neil.
>
>
>
>
>
> On 11/16/2020 3:12 PM, Denny Esterline wrote:
> > The company I work for really needs to bring on at least one more
> > developer. So far, I've been very disappointed in the applicant
> > pool. It seems that no matter what we put in the job description,
> > 99% of the applicants have zero experience with a microcontroller.
> > Even when I include something obnoxious in the job posting like the following:
> >
> > To be considered for this position, you must have an intimate
> > understanding of the inner workings of a microcontroller, and the
> > ability to write software on "bare metal" (OS-less) systems. In the
> > interview, you can expect to be asked questions about registers,
> > memory maps, ADCs, interrupt processing, timers, compiler theory, and state machines.
> > I get nothing but web developers and Java programmers.
> >
> > So, my question to you fine people, How and where do you find
> > firmware people?
> >
> > -Denny
>
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
--
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Re: [EE]: How to find & hire firmware people

Manu Abraham-2
>
> There were other clues as well, but that was the funniest.
>

True, but ..

One man's fun is another man's gloom.
Though it appears to be funny, the karmic cycle I prefer to avoid.
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Re: [EE]: How to find & hire firmware people

Neil Cherry-3
In reply to this post by Manu Abraham-2
On 11/17/20 7:47 AM, Manu Abraham wrote:

> Sometimes, pronunciations could be misleading.
> (I've come across software developers claiming years of experience who
> could not count upto binary 3)

I'm from NYC and I've known since I was a kid how to count to 4 in binary. ;-)

Sorry couldn't resist.

--
Linux Home Automation         Neil Cherry       [hidden email]
http://www.linuxha.com/                         Main site
http://linuxha.blogspot.com/                    My HA Blog
Author of:     Linux Smart Homes For Dummies
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Re: [EE]: How to find & hire firmware people

Harold Hallikainen-3

> On 11/17/20 7:47 AM, Manu Abraham wrote:
>
>> Sometimes, pronunciations could be misleading.
>> (I've come across software developers claiming years of experience who
>> could not count upto binary 3)
>
> I'm from NYC and I've known since I was a kid how to count to 4 in binary.
> ;-)
>
> Sorry couldn't resist.
>

I got used to counting backwards in hex to do hand assembly of relative
branches on the MC6800.

On the original post, I thought the description of the job was pretty
good. Applicants just need to pay attention to it. I wonder if you can
request a couple pages of sample code in C or assembly. Look for nice
structure, variable names, comments, etc.

Harold






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Re: [EE]: How to find & hire firmware people

Manu Abraham-2
In reply to this post by Neil Cherry-3
On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 8:53 PM Neil Cherry <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Sorry couldn't resist.

Use a resistor, as simple as that. :-D

Manu
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Re: [EE]: How to find & hire firmware people

Ryan O'Connor
I actually have no idea about this question, but I thought I might share my
experience which is surely all too common, and may help to understand these
weird applicants.

Since I was around 8 years old I have been fascinated with computers. In
high school I taught myself x86 assembly and C++ and loved coding
everything from graphics competitions to windows utilities and trying to
code drivers or hack stuff using softice in windows 98. I remember I took a
miniature hand lathe and built the electronics and drivers to convert it
into a mini CNC lathe, while my father mechanically connected the stepper
motors to the axis.

Then I got to university. I was able to skip the first year because of my
experience and was awarded a scholarship. I learned about writing operating
systems and improved my C++ skills and learned more about algorithms and
object oriented programming. I did web design to help pay my way through
university. Then I graduated.

When I started looking for work I realised that there was only one company
who developed products with firmware in my city. And I liked my city and
wanted to stay there. So instead I continued web development and eventually
got into game development which piqued my interest again in graphics demos.
After starting a company and writing some C++ and java games, I again tried
to look for companies doing lower level things. I ended up moving to the
largest city in New Zealand and doing graphics R&D for multilayer displays
which are used in many casino machines. This was pretty much a dream job
for me. After this job the economy took a slight turn and the only work I
could find was mobile or web development, and I started getting relaxed
about my career and chose web development. After this I just autopiloted
for a while because web development was easy and paid well. Now I still do
web app development and get paid very well.

I want to go back to the low level days and build firmware and robotics or
stuff like that, but I need to take almost a 50% pay cut to shift to that
stuff. I always have feelers out for companies who are doing that kind of
thing. I had a job interview with one company and they really wanted me to
do cloud/web stuff for their products because of my experience but I told
them I spend all my free time doing microcontrollers and designing and
manufacturing electronics. But I would be keen to do the cloud stuff anyway
just to be around the sort of people who are doing the stuff that I love. I
didn't get hired.

I've had multiple experiences like the above, and while my heart is more
towards electronics, I'm kinda just stuck now as a "javascript developer"
but it has allowed me to take 2 mortgages, one of them for a large new home
in one of the most sought after towns of new zealand and work remotely. I
have a great team and I'm very happy. So if you wanted me to do firmware
for you, you'd have to look at my CV and see that technically I have almost
no commercial experience, pay me a senior wage, allow me to work remotely.

Not really sure why I shared all this, after writing it I realised my story
is actually quite unique. But hey it's a story from the perspective of a
web developer! Good luck with your hire!

Ryan

On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 at 08:53, Manu Abraham <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 8:53 PM Neil Cherry <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Sorry couldn't resist.
>
> Use a resistor, as simple as that. :-D
>
> Manu
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Re: [EE]: How to find & hire firmware people

James Cameron-2
Thanks Ryan, a great read.

I'm also reminded that applicants for a role experience the
Dunning-Kruger effect combined with a simple confirmation bias.

Web developers are a cut above the average dish washer; they
understand procedural languages, computer networking, software
layering, and standards.  What they don't know for a firmware role can
be learned, but an employer may want to pay for that training to occur
before hiring rather than after.

p.s. my web development skills have atrophied, as has my COBOL, but my
firmware skills are worth testing.  Hire me.  ;-)

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Re: [EE]: How to find & hire firmware people

Ryan O'Connor
Thanks James that's a really generous comment; much appreciated. In regards
to web developers, in the very least we need to be constantly learning and
adapting since the web is moving so fast. But I definitely recognise
firmware is it's own beast and skillset in very much the same way. It does
take experience and some training.

What I didn't mention was when I was working on the graphics demos there
was an engineer there who worked for AMD who were really breaking into the
market as a big player at the time. His stuff was super next level, he was
able to write all kinds of 3d raytracing demos within code size limitations
which performed well and were just damn cool and interesting. His level of
understanding of instructions and mathematics was incomprehensible to most
of us. For anyone interested, this scene has (ironically) shifted to the
web now, with opengl shaders being supported in browsers. Googling
"shadertoy" will find the most popular active demo archive where all code
is available and many study examples are available. I hate to admit it but
many of the demos now are even more impressive with less shader code than
back in those days. But that's also the evolution of GPU architecture for
you. And that's not even mentioning that very soon 3D games will be
enhanced with real-time ray tracing as a norm (hardware is already
affordable and not a gimmick:
https://www.windowscentral.com/10-graphics-cards-support-ray-tracing)



On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 at 09:51, James Cameron <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks Ryan, a great read.
>
> I'm also reminded that applicants for a role experience the
> Dunning-Kruger effect combined with a simple confirmation bias.
>
> Web developers are a cut above the average dish washer; they
> understand procedural languages, computer networking, software
> layering, and standards.  What they don't know for a firmware role can
> be learned, but an employer may want to pay for that training to occur
> before hiring rather than after.
>
> p.s. my web development skills have atrophied, as has my COBOL, but my
> firmware skills are worth testing.  Hire me.  ;-)
>
> --
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> http://quozl.netrek.org/
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Re: [EE]: How to find & hire firmware people

Forrest Christian (List Account)
In reply to this post by James Cameron-2
Not trying to discount the skill of some web developers at all with the
following statement:

I personally have to laugh at times at the term "Full Stack Web
Developer".    Mainly because I have shipping products which I've done all
the R&D on from the schematics and the board layout through the Responsive
web GUI for the device (HTML5/React).  Yeah there are a few libraries I'm
relying on in there (TCP/IP stack for instance), but even then one has to
dig into those to debug/fix vendor bugs.  But I think that the web
developer's "Full Stack" is missing a bit on the hardware end...



On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 1:57 PM James Cameron <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks Ryan, a great read.
>
> I'm also reminded that applicants for a role experience the
> Dunning-Kruger effect combined with a simple confirmation bias.
>
> Web developers are a cut above the average dish washer; they
> understand procedural languages, computer networking, software
> layering, and standards.  What they don't know for a firmware role can
> be learned, but an employer may want to pay for that training to occur
> before hiring rather than after.
>
> p.s. my web development skills have atrophied, as has my COBOL, but my
> firmware skills are worth testing.  Hire me.  ;-)
>
> --
> James Cameron
> http://quozl.netrek.org/
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>


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Re: [EE]: How to find & hire firmware people

Neil Cherry-3
In reply to this post by Manu Abraham-2
On 11/17/20 2:51 PM, Manu Abraham wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 8:53 PM Neil Cherry <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Sorry couldn't resist.
>
> Use a resistor, as simple as that. :-D

I like it! :-)

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Re: [EE]: How to find & hire firmware people

Neil Cherry-3
In reply to this post by Forrest Christian (List Account)
On 11/17/20 4:40 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
> Not trying to discount the skill of some web developers at all with the
> following statement:
>
> I personally have to laugh at times at the term "Full Stack Web
> Developer".

Oh please someone explain to me what a Full stack is? I do Agile Dev/Ops now for
SDn and I thought I knew the networking part of it really well but pnf's inside of
pnfs, pserver/vserver/vnf/vnfc/pnf are hurting my brain. ;-)

I'll be honest I can probably know half the stuff the OP was looking for but I do
terrible on the programming tests (too many languages, I need my references as they
all bleed into my code). Also please don't ask me to write a network stack. ;-)
I can walk the stack though anything above layer 4 gets a bit wonky (actually layer
2 - layer 4 in SDN gets a bit wonky now).

I am continually learning but that puts other information at the back of my mind
because I have over 40 years of learning to keep in my head and in my emacs org-mode
notes.

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