[EE] "Tactile" spec?
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Is there some way to tell from a datasheet if a switch is "clicky"/tactile?
I'm looking for switches for a really small custom keyboard, with "larger" caps so I don't have to make keycaps (for a hand-held terminal). I found variations of this ( https://lcsc.com/product-detail/Tactile-Switches_ALPS-Electric-SKPMAPE010_C110292.html ) which are listed under "Tactile switches", but the datasheet ( https://datasheet.lcsc.com/szlcsc/1811151425_ALPS-Electric-SKPMAPE010_C110292.pdf ) says "Soft feeling type". Other brands don't seem to have anything about it, but not sure if there's some spec that I don't know of... https://datasheet.lcsc.com/szlcsc/1811011022_HYP-Hongyuan-Precision-1TS009A-2000-5000-CT_C255813.pdf https://datasheet.lcsc.com/szlcsc/1809271721_Korean-Hroparts-Elec-K2-1817UQ-C4SW-01_C128939.pdf And aliexpress version says "silent" in the title... https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32820232659.html?spm=a2g0w.10010108.1000016.1.66ba49e7qBfE7W Is there a way to figure this out w/o having the cost/lead time just to get a couple pieces to try? PS: Yes, I could use domes on a PCB, but then I have to make keycaps, which is another effort in itself, and this is just a one-off for myself. Cheers, -Neil. -- http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist |
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Quoting Neil <[hidden email]>:
> Is there some way to tell from a datasheet if a switch is "clicky"/tactile? "Tact" switches are going to be tactile by default I think. The two "Operation force" numbers in the Hon Yuan datasheet imply hysteresis (one maximum force to actuate and one minimum force to release) so tactile feel but but whether that means it makes a noise is not obvious (how would you even specify that technically?). Also, if you look at the tolerance bands, they don't guarantee it (though in practice I'm sure there is some hysteresis). --sp > > I'm looking for switches for a really small custom keyboard, with > "larger" caps so I don't have to make keycaps (for a hand-held terminal). > I found variations of this ( > https://lcsc.com/product-detail/Tactile-Switches_ALPS-Electric-SKPMAPE010_C110292.html > ) which are listed under "Tactile switches", but the datasheet ( > https://datasheet.lcsc.com/szlcsc/1811151425_ALPS-Electric-SKPMAPE010_C110292.pdf > ) says "Soft feeling type". > Other brands don't seem to have anything about it, but not sure if > there's some spec that I don't know of... > https://datasheet.lcsc.com/szlcsc/1811011022_HYP-Hongyuan-Precision-1TS009A-2000-5000-CT_C255813.pdf > https://datasheet.lcsc.com/szlcsc/1809271721_Korean-Hroparts-Elec-K2-1817UQ-C4SW-01_C128939.pdf > > And aliexpress version says "silent" in the title... > https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32820232659.html?spm=a2g0w.10010108.1000016.1.66ba49e7qBfE7W > > Is there a way to figure this out w/o having the cost/lead time just to > get a couple pieces to try? > > PS: Yes, I could use domes on a PCB, but then I have to make keycaps, > which is another effort in itself, and this is just a one-off for myself. > > Cheers, > -Neil. > > -- > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive > View/change your membership options at > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist > -- http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist |
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The contradicting "tactile" categorization and "soft feeling type" is
what's confusing me. I hadn't thought of hysteresis. I took the 2 numbers to mean 2 different switch versions/models (since I don't understand the Chinese/related language). I'm now looking at the datasheet for a known tactile/clicky switch... https://sten-eswitch-13110800-production.s3.amazonaws.com/system/asset/product_line/data_sheet/144/TL1105.pdf I don't see any hysteresis or 2 force numbers for these either though. Cheers, -Neil. On 8/1/2020 12:38 PM, [hidden email] wrote: > > "Tact" switches are going to be tactile by default I think. > > The two "Operation force" numbers in the Hon Yuan datasheet imply hysteresis > (one maximum force to actuate and one minimum force to release) so tactile > feel but but whether that means it makes a noise is not obvious (how would > you even specify that technically?). > > Also, if you look at the tolerance bands, they don't guarantee it > (though in practice I'm sure there is some hysteresis). > > --sp > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist |
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I don’t think the 中文 contributes much to the interpretation - the < vs > is what tipped me off. Certainly ’tact’ switches are available with different dome operating forces.
I don’t see a contradiction between ‘tactile‘ vs ‘clicky’- they’re pretty much orthogonal specs. The first is feel, the second is sound. Think of the “Cherry” mechanical keyboard switches that are prized by gamers- some are noisy and positive-acting and some are not so clicky. Compare with silicone dome switches that are also tactile but never all that clicky. Bottom line, it seems to me to be a bit of a dog’s breakfast and you probably want to order samples and try them. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany >> On Aug 2, 2020, at 12:48 PM, Neil <[hidden email]> wrote: > The contradicting "tactile" categorization and "soft feeling type" is > what's confusing me. > > I hadn't thought of hysteresis. I took the 2 numbers to mean 2 > different switch versions/models (since I don't understand the > Chinese/related language). > I'm now looking at the datasheet for a known tactile/clicky switch... > https://sten-eswitch-13110800-production.s3.amazonaws.com/system/asset/product_line/data_sheet/144/TL1105.pdf > > I don't see any hysteresis or 2 force numbers for these either though. > > Cheers, > -Neil. > > > > > >> On 8/1/2020 12:38 PM, [hidden email] wrote: >> >> "Tact" switches are going to be tactile by default I think. >> >> The two "Operation force" numbers in the Hon Yuan datasheet imply hysteresis >> (one maximum force to actuate and one minimum force to release) so tactile >> feel but but whether that means it makes a noise is not obvious (how would >> you even specify that technically?). >> >> Also, if you look at the tolerance bands, they don't guarantee it >> (though in practice I'm sure there is some hysteresis). >> >> --sp > -- > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive > View/change your membership options at > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist |
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Ah... by "clicky" I meant clicky feel. Usually accompanied by a click
sound (like the IBM 3151 terminals), but sound is not necessary. I want the switch to have a positive tactile feel so it's clear when it has been engaged/pressed. Yes, samples would be best... was just trying to save some time/cost since the options I'm leaning towards are on the other side of the planet from me. Cheers, -Neil. On 8/2/2020 1:18 PM, Spehro Pefhany wrote: > I don’t think the 中文 contributes much to the interpretation - the < vs > is what tipped me off. Certainly ’tact’ switches are available with different dome operating forces. > > I don’t see a contradiction between ‘tactile‘ vs ‘clicky’- they’re pretty much orthogonal specs. The first is feel, the second is sound. > > Think of the “Cherry” mechanical keyboard switches that are prized by gamers- some are noisy and positive-acting and some are not so clicky. Compare with silicone dome switches that are also tactile but never all that clicky. > > Bottom line, it seems to me to be a bit of a dog’s breakfast and you probably want to order samples and try them. > > Best regards, > Spehro Pefhany > >>> On Aug 2, 2020, at 12:48 PM, Neil <[hidden email]> wrote: >> The contradicting "tactile" categorization and "soft feeling type" is >> what's confusing me. >> >> I hadn't thought of hysteresis. I took the 2 numbers to mean 2 >> different switch versions/models (since I don't understand the >> Chinese/related language). >> I'm now looking at the datasheet for a known tactile/clicky switch... >> https://sten-eswitch-13110800-production.s3.amazonaws.com/system/asset/product_line/data_sheet/144/TL1105.pdf >> >> I don't see any hysteresis or 2 force numbers for these either though. >> >> Cheers, >> -Neil. >> >> >> >> >> >>> On 8/1/2020 12:38 PM, [hidden email] wrote: >>> >>> "Tact" switches are going to be tactile by default I think. >>> >>> The two "Operation force" numbers in the Hon Yuan datasheet imply hysteresis >>> (one maximum force to actuate and one minimum force to release) so tactile >>> feel but but whether that means it makes a noise is not obvious (how would >>> you even specify that technically?). >>> >>> Also, if you look at the tolerance bands, they don't guarantee it >>> (though in practice I'm sure there is some hysteresis). >>> >>> --sp >> -- >> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive >> View/change your membership options at >> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist -- http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist |
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In reply to this post by Spehro Pefhany
On Sat, Aug 01, 2020 at 12:38:06PM -0400, [hidden email] wrote:
> The two "Operation force" numbers in the Hon Yuan datasheet imply > hysteresis (one maximum force to actuate and one minimum force to > release) so tactile feel but but whether that means it makes a noise > is not obvious (how would you even specify that technically?). In manufacturing test, a force sensing movable probe with a microphone can generate two time domain graphs. (We used one of these at our CM for OLPC, in button endurance testing). You can then see from the graphs if there is a tactile and noise response. However, I've almost never seen them added to datasheets. Making a promise of compliance would be costly, as the manufacturer would have to extend input QA to the springs and mechanical engineering. If it was for human rated space, aviation, railways, or medical devices, perhaps. I reckon it would be done for emergency stop buttons if the regulations for those were created today. -- James Cameron http://quozl.netrek.org/ -- http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist |
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In reply to this post by Neil
On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 03:02, Neil <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Is there some way to tell from a datasheet if a switch is "clicky"/tactile? > > As others have noted - "tact" switches are liable to suit. Others may. Possibly worth noting - if operating force range is of concern then specifying it may be a good idea. I long ago had a batch of multi layer mylar keyboards made. Non tactile. Maybe 50? keyboards - NZ made so not overly cheap. 3 layers - x contacts on top layer , y contacts at 90 degrees on bottom layer and a hole at key locations in middle layer. Laminate / glue. Operating force depends on hole size, material and middle layer thickness. I had a very specific requirement for operating force. I wrote a spec re operating finger size and operating force. I took the really-didn't-care manufacturer through it line by line and got a spec signoff. The resultant keyboards were all several times higher in operating force than per spec. I had him redo them. The originals would have been usable in 'normal' applications but were non standard enough that odds are he just wrote them off. Russell -- http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist |
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