[EE] "Tactile" spec?

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
7 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

[EE] "Tactile" spec?

Neil
Is there some way to tell from a datasheet if a switch is "clicky"/tactile?

I'm looking for switches for a really small custom keyboard, with
"larger" caps so I don't have to make keycaps (for a hand-held terminal).
I found variations of this (
https://lcsc.com/product-detail/Tactile-Switches_ALPS-Electric-SKPMAPE010_C110292.html 
) which are listed under "Tactile switches", but the datasheet (
https://datasheet.lcsc.com/szlcsc/1811151425_ALPS-Electric-SKPMAPE010_C110292.pdf 
) says "Soft feeling type".
Other brands don't seem to have anything about it, but not sure if
there's some spec that I don't know of...
https://datasheet.lcsc.com/szlcsc/1811011022_HYP-Hongyuan-Precision-1TS009A-2000-5000-CT_C255813.pdf
https://datasheet.lcsc.com/szlcsc/1809271721_Korean-Hroparts-Elec-K2-1817UQ-C4SW-01_C128939.pdf

And aliexpress version says "silent" in the title...
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32820232659.html?spm=a2g0w.10010108.1000016.1.66ba49e7qBfE7W

Is there a way to figure this out w/o having the cost/lead time just to
get a couple pieces to try?

PS:  Yes, I could use domes on a PCB, but then I have to make keycaps,
which is another effort in itself, and this is just a one-off for myself.

Cheers,
-Neil.

--
http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [EE] "Tactile" spec?

Spehro Pefhany
Quoting Neil <[hidden email]>:

> Is there some way to tell from a datasheet if a switch is "clicky"/tactile?

"Tact" switches are going to be tactile by default I think.

The two "Operation force" numbers in the Hon Yuan datasheet imply hysteresis
(one maximum force to actuate and one minimum force to release) so tactile
feel but but  whether that means it makes a noise is not obvious (how would
you even specify that technically?).

Also, if you look at the tolerance bands, they don't guarantee it  
(though in practice I'm sure there is some hysteresis).

--sp



>
> I'm looking for switches for a really small custom keyboard, with
> "larger" caps so I don't have to make keycaps (for a hand-held terminal).
> I found variations of this (
> https://lcsc.com/product-detail/Tactile-Switches_ALPS-Electric-SKPMAPE010_C110292.html
> ) which are listed under "Tactile switches", but the datasheet (
> https://datasheet.lcsc.com/szlcsc/1811151425_ALPS-Electric-SKPMAPE010_C110292.pdf
> ) says "Soft feeling type".
> Other brands don't seem to have anything about it, but not sure if
> there's some spec that I don't know of...
> https://datasheet.lcsc.com/szlcsc/1811011022_HYP-Hongyuan-Precision-1TS009A-2000-5000-CT_C255813.pdf
> https://datasheet.lcsc.com/szlcsc/1809271721_Korean-Hroparts-Elec-K2-1817UQ-C4SW-01_C128939.pdf
>
> And aliexpress version says "silent" in the title...
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32820232659.html?spm=a2g0w.10010108.1000016.1.66ba49e7qBfE7W
>
> Is there a way to figure this out w/o having the cost/lead time just to
> get a couple pieces to try?
>
> PS:  Yes, I could use domes on a PCB, but then I have to make keycaps,
> which is another effort in itself, and this is just a one-off for myself.
>
> Cheers,
> -Neil.
>
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>



--
http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [EE] "Tactile" spec?

Neil
The contradicting "tactile" categorization and "soft feeling type" is
what's confusing me.

I hadn't thought of hysteresis.   I took the 2 numbers to mean 2
different switch versions/models (since I don't understand the
Chinese/related language).
I'm now looking at the datasheet for a known tactile/clicky switch...
https://sten-eswitch-13110800-production.s3.amazonaws.com/system/asset/product_line/data_sheet/144/TL1105.pdf

I don't see any hysteresis or 2 force numbers for these either though.

Cheers,
-Neil.





On 8/1/2020 12:38 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

>
> "Tact" switches are going to be tactile by default I think.
>
> The two "Operation force" numbers in the Hon Yuan datasheet imply hysteresis
> (one maximum force to actuate and one minimum force to release) so tactile
> feel but but  whether that means it makes a noise is not obvious (how would
> you even specify that technically?).
>
> Also, if you look at the tolerance bands, they don't guarantee it
> (though in practice I'm sure there is some hysteresis).
>
> --sp
>
--
http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [EE] "Tactile" spec?

Spehro Pefhany
I don’t think the 中文 contributes much to the interpretation - the < vs > is what tipped me off. Certainly ’tact’ switches are available with different dome operating forces.

I don’t see a contradiction between ‘tactile‘ vs ‘clicky’- they’re pretty much orthogonal specs. The first is feel, the second is sound.

Think of the “Cherry” mechanical keyboard switches that are prized by gamers- some are noisy and positive-acting and some are not so clicky. Compare with silicone dome switches that are also tactile but never all that clicky.

Bottom line, it seems to me to be a bit of a dog’s breakfast and you probably want to order samples and try them.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

>> On Aug 2, 2020, at 12:48 PM, Neil <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The contradicting "tactile" categorization and "soft feeling type" is
> what's confusing me.
>
> I hadn't thought of hysteresis.   I took the 2 numbers to mean 2
> different switch versions/models (since I don't understand the
> Chinese/related language).
> I'm now looking at the datasheet for a known tactile/clicky switch...
> https://sten-eswitch-13110800-production.s3.amazonaws.com/system/asset/product_line/data_sheet/144/TL1105.pdf
>
> I don't see any hysteresis or 2 force numbers for these either though.
>
> Cheers,
> -Neil.
>
>
>
>
>
>> On 8/1/2020 12:38 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>
>> "Tact" switches are going to be tactile by default I think.
>>
>> The two "Operation force" numbers in the Hon Yuan datasheet imply hysteresis
>> (one maximum force to actuate and one minimum force to release) so tactile
>> feel but but  whether that means it makes a noise is not obvious (how would
>> you even specify that technically?).
>>
>> Also, if you look at the tolerance bands, they don't guarantee it
>> (though in practice I'm sure there is some hysteresis).
>>
>> --sp
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
--
http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [EE] "Tactile" spec?

Neil
Ah... by "clicky" I meant clicky feel.  Usually accompanied by a click
sound (like the IBM 3151 terminals), but sound is not necessary.
I want the switch to have a positive tactile feel so it's clear when it
has been engaged/pressed.

Yes, samples would be best... was just trying to save some time/cost
since the options I'm leaning towards are on the other side of the
planet from me.

Cheers,
-Neil.



On 8/2/2020 1:18 PM, Spehro Pefhany wrote:

> I don’t think the 中文 contributes much to the interpretation - the < vs > is what tipped me off. Certainly ’tact’ switches are available with different dome operating forces.
>
> I don’t see a contradiction between ‘tactile‘ vs ‘clicky’- they’re pretty much orthogonal specs. The first is feel, the second is sound.
>
> Think of the “Cherry” mechanical keyboard switches that are prized by gamers- some are noisy and positive-acting and some are not so clicky. Compare with silicone dome switches that are also tactile but never all that clicky.
>
> Bottom line, it seems to me to be a bit of a dog’s breakfast and you probably want to order samples and try them.
>
> Best regards,
> Spehro Pefhany
>
>>> On Aug 2, 2020, at 12:48 PM, Neil <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> The contradicting "tactile" categorization and "soft feeling type" is
>> what's confusing me.
>>
>> I hadn't thought of hysteresis.   I took the 2 numbers to mean 2
>> different switch versions/models (since I don't understand the
>> Chinese/related language).
>> I'm now looking at the datasheet for a known tactile/clicky switch...
>> https://sten-eswitch-13110800-production.s3.amazonaws.com/system/asset/product_line/data_sheet/144/TL1105.pdf
>>
>> I don't see any hysteresis or 2 force numbers for these either though.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Neil.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 8/1/2020 12:38 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>
>>> "Tact" switches are going to be tactile by default I think.
>>>
>>> The two "Operation force" numbers in the Hon Yuan datasheet imply hysteresis
>>> (one maximum force to actuate and one minimum force to release) so tactile
>>> feel but but  whether that means it makes a noise is not obvious (how would
>>> you even specify that technically?).
>>>
>>> Also, if you look at the tolerance bands, they don't guarantee it
>>> (though in practice I'm sure there is some hysteresis).
>>>
>>> --sp
>> --
>> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
>> View/change your membership options at
>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

--
http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [EE] "Tactile" spec?

James Cameron-2
In reply to this post by Spehro Pefhany
On Sat, Aug 01, 2020 at 12:38:06PM -0400, [hidden email] wrote:
> The two "Operation force" numbers in the Hon Yuan datasheet imply
> hysteresis (one maximum force to actuate and one minimum force to
> release) so tactile feel but but whether that means it makes a noise
> is not obvious (how would you even specify that technically?).

In manufacturing test, a force sensing movable probe with a microphone
can generate two time domain graphs.  (We used one of these at
our CM for OLPC, in button endurance testing).

You can then see from the graphs if there is a tactile and noise
response.

However, I've almost never seen them added to datasheets.  Making a
promise of compliance would be costly, as the manufacturer would have
to extend input QA to the springs and mechanical engineering.

If it was for human rated space, aviation, railways, or medical
devices, perhaps.

I reckon it would be done for emergency stop buttons if the
regulations for those were created today.

--
James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
--
http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [EE] "Tactile" spec?

RussellMc
In reply to this post by Neil
On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 03:02, Neil <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Is there some way to tell from a datasheet if a switch is "clicky"/tactile?
>
> As others have noted - "tact" switches are liable to suit. Others may.

Possibly worth noting - if operating force range is of concern then
specifying it may be a good idea.

I long ago had a batch of  multi layer mylar keyboards made. Non tactile.
Maybe 50? keyboards - NZ made so not overly cheap.
3 layers - x contacts on top layer , y contacts at 90 degrees on bottom
layer and a hole at key locations in middle layer.
Laminate / glue.
Operating force depends on hole size, material and middle layer thickness.

I had a very specific requirement for operating force.
I wrote a spec re operating finger size and operating force.
I took the really-didn't-care manufacturer through it line by line and got
a spec signoff.
The resultant keyboards were all several times higher in operating force
than per spec.
I had him redo them.
The originals would have been usable in 'normal' applications but were
non standard enough that odds are he just wrote them off.


     Russell
--
http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist