[EE] solderless breadboards VS. "Dupont connectors"

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[EE] solderless breadboards VS. "Dupont connectors"

madscientistatlarge
Circuit specialist say breadboards can tolerate 20 AWG max (0.032"), Dupont connectors are 0.04".  Will breadboards tolerate this long term or does it slowly damage the sockets?  If it wil just loosen them I'm fine with that as long as 24 awg will continue to work.  Or should I see breadboards as having a more limited life?  They have gotten a lot less expensive.


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Re: [EE] solderless breadboards VS. "Dupont connectors"

RussellMc
On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 at 11:53, madscientistatlarge <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Circuit specialist say breadboards can tolerate 20 AWG max (0.032"),
> Dupont connectors are 0.04".  Will breadboards tolerate this long term or
> does it slowly damage the sockets?  If it wil just loosen them I'm fine
> with that as long as 24 awg will continue to work.  Or should I see
> breadboards as having a more limited life?  They have gotten a lot less
> expensive.
>

 Without knowing specific gauges, my experience is that forcing heavier
wires that "will fit but are rather tight" into a breadboard loosens up the
contacts and makes them less reliable in future for previously acceptable
wire sizes.

This will no doubt depend on BB quality.


        Russell
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Re: [EE] solderless breadboards VS. "Dupont connectors"

Peter-251
I second what Russell has posted below. This also has been my extended
experience with breadboards and heavier wires.

Peter.


On 15/08/2020 10:26 am, RussellMc wrote:

> On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 at 11:53, madscientistatlarge <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Circuit specialist say breadboards can tolerate 20 AWG max (0.032"),
>> Dupont connectors are 0.04".  Will breadboards tolerate this long term or
>> does it slowly damage the sockets?  If it wil just loosen them I'm fine
>> with that as long as 24 awg will continue to work.  Or should I see
>> breadboards as having a more limited life?  They have gotten a lot less
>> expensive.
>>
>   Without knowing specific gauges, my experience is that forcing heavier
> wires that "will fit but are rather tight" into a breadboard loosens up the
> contacts and makes them less reliable in future for previously acceptable
> wire sizes.
>
> This will no doubt depend on BB quality.
>
>
>          Russell
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Re: [EE] solderless breadboards VS. "Dupont connectors"

Denny Esterline-2
In reply to this post by madscientistatlarge
I have some "far east import" "dupont" connectors and a caliper here on my
desk, 0.022" - 0.025" So it seems the 0.040" spec is... suspect.

Also, it's been my experience that breadboards are cheap compared to the
time you spend chasing dodgy connections.

-Denny


On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 4:53 PM madscientistatlarge <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Circuit specialist say breadboards can tolerate 20 AWG max (0.032"),
> Dupont connectors are 0.04".  Will breadboards tolerate this long term or
> does it slowly damage the sockets?  If it wil just loosen them I'm fine
> with that as long as 24 awg will continue to work.  Or should I see
> breadboards as having a more limited life?  They have gotten a lot less
> expensive.
>
>
> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
>
>
>
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Re: [EE] solderless breadboards VS. "Dupont connectors"

madscientistatlarge
Thank you, I was assuming the pins were the same size as on headers when they are smaller.  In any case I won't expect solderless bread boards to last a long time.


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‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Friday, August 14, 2020 9:21 PM, Denny Esterline <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have some "far east import" "dupont" connectors and a caliper here on my
> desk, 0.022" - 0.025" So it seems the 0.040" spec is... suspect.
>
> Also, it's been my experience that breadboards are cheap compared to the
> time you spend chasing dodgy connections.
>
> -Denny
>
> On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 4:53 PM madscientistatlarge <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Circuit specialist say breadboards can tolerate 20 AWG max (0.032"),
> > Dupont connectors are 0.04". Will breadboards tolerate this long term or
> > does it slowly damage the sockets? If it wil just loosen them I'm fine
> > with that as long as 24 awg will continue to work. Or should I see
> > breadboards as having a more limited life? They have gotten a lot less
> > expensive.
> > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
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Re: [EE] solderless breadboards VS. "Dupont connectors"

Justin Richards
mr explainingcomputers.com just whipped out a 35 year old bread board and
he implied it has had some use and survived well.

I think a good quality board is well designed to endure some degree of
torture.  Some have good springy material that is difficult to bend past
its elastic point.

The trick is to distinguish a good one from a bad before buying it.

You can always remove one of the strips and torture test it so you can
observe its behaviour.

justin



On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 2:28 PM madscientistatlarge <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thank you, I was assuming the pins were the same size as on headers when
> they are smaller.  In any case I won't expect solderless bread boards to
> last a long time.
>
>
> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
>
> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
> On Friday, August 14, 2020 9:21 PM, Denny Esterline <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > I have some "far east import" "dupont" connectors and a caliper here on
> my
> > desk, 0.022" - 0.025" So it seems the 0.040" spec is... suspect.
> >
> > Also, it's been my experience that breadboards are cheap compared to the
> > time you spend chasing dodgy connections.
> >
> > -Denny
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 4:53 PM madscientistatlarge <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Circuit specialist say breadboards can tolerate 20 AWG max (0.032"),
> > > Dupont connectors are 0.04". Will breadboards tolerate this long term
> or
> > > does it slowly damage the sockets? If it wil just loosen them I'm fine
> > > with that as long as 24 awg will continue to work. Or should I see
> > > breadboards as having a more limited life? They have gotten a lot less
> > > expensive.
> > > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
> > > --
> > > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > > View/change your membership options at
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Re: [EE] solderless breadboards VS. "Dupont connectors"

David C Brown
I never realised that real engineers used solderless bread boards
I thought they were for hobbyists and old men like me who aren't safe
sharp knives and hot irons.  :-)
__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak                           Phone: 01663 733236
Derbyshire                eMail: [hidden email]
SK23 7ND          web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*


On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 at 15:22, Justin Richards <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> mr explainingcomputers.com just whipped out a 35 year old bread board and
> he implied it has had some use and survived well.
>
> I think a good quality board is well designed to endure some degree of
> torture.  Some have good springy material that is difficult to bend past
> its elastic point.
>
> The trick is to distinguish a good one from a bad before buying it.
>
> You can always remove one of the strips and torture test it so you can
> observe its behaviour.
>
> justin
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 2:28 PM madscientistatlarge <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Thank you, I was assuming the pins were the same size as on headers when
> > they are smaller.  In any case I won't expect solderless bread boards to
> > last a long time.
> >
> >
> > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
> >
> > ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
> > On Friday, August 14, 2020 9:21 PM, Denny Esterline <
> [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I have some "far east import" "dupont" connectors and a caliper here on
> > my
> > > desk, 0.022" - 0.025" So it seems the 0.040" spec is... suspect.
> > >
> > > Also, it's been my experience that breadboards are cheap compared to
> the
> > > time you spend chasing dodgy connections.
> > >
> > > -Denny
> > >
> > > On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 4:53 PM madscientistatlarge <
> > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Circuit specialist say breadboards can tolerate 20 AWG max (0.032"),
> > > > Dupont connectors are 0.04". Will breadboards tolerate this long term
> > or
> > > > does it slowly damage the sockets? If it wil just loosen them I'm
> fine
> > > > with that as long as 24 awg will continue to work. Or should I see
> > > > breadboards as having a more limited life? They have gotten a lot
> less
> > > > expensive.
> > > > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
> > > > --
> > > > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > > > View/change your membership options at
> > > > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> > >
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> > > View/change your membership options at
> > > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [EE] solderless breadboards VS. "Dupont connectors"

Trevor
David C Brown wrote on 16/08/2020 01:43:
> I never realised that real engineers used solderless bread boards
> I thought they were for hobbyists and old men like me who aren't safe
> sharp knives and hot irons.  :-)

Ha! I started out with a wooden breadboard and springs with clips pushed
through the breadboard holes from underneath, you pushed down the spring
until the top of the clip appeared and then you passed the wires,
transistor, etc leads through the pin and the outer spring kept it in
place (NZ, 1960s - Fountain Electronics Kit).
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Re: [EE] solderless breadboards VS. "Dupont connectors"

Clint Jay
In reply to this post by David C Brown
There's a couple of cupboards at work with a bunch of BBC Microbits,
Raspberry Pi, various STM32 boards and there's definitely a few breadboards
for lashing up stuff with them too.

There's a roller coaster model in the office that was built by interns and
I'm pretty sure there's a breadboard buried in the bottom of it :)

On Sat, 15 Aug 2020, 16:44 David C Brown, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I never realised that real engineers used solderless bread boards
> I thought they were for hobbyists and old men like me who aren't safe
> sharp knives and hot irons.  :-)
> __________________________________________
> David C Brown
> 43 Bings Road
> Whaley Bridge
> High Peak                           Phone: 01663 733236
> Derbyshire                eMail: [hidden email]
> SK23 7ND          web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
> <http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>
>
>
>
> *Sent from my etch-a-sketch*
>
>
> On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 at 15:22, Justin Richards <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > mr explainingcomputers.com just whipped out a 35 year old bread board
> and
> > he implied it has had some use and survived well.
> >
> > I think a good quality board is well designed to endure some degree of
> > torture.  Some have good springy material that is difficult to bend past
> > its elastic point.
> >
> > The trick is to distinguish a good one from a bad before buying it.
> >
> > You can always remove one of the strips and torture test it so you can
> > observe its behaviour.
> >
> > justin
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 2:28 PM madscientistatlarge <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Thank you, I was assuming the pins were the same size as on headers
> when
> > > they are smaller.  In any case I won't expect solderless bread boards
> to
> > > last a long time.
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
> > >
> > > ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
> > > On Friday, August 14, 2020 9:21 PM, Denny Esterline <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I have some "far east import" "dupont" connectors and a caliper here
> on
> > > my
> > > > desk, 0.022" - 0.025" So it seems the 0.040" spec is... suspect.
> > > >
> > > > Also, it's been my experience that breadboards are cheap compared to
> > the
> > > > time you spend chasing dodgy connections.
> > > >
> > > > -Denny
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 4:53 PM madscientistatlarge <
> > > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Circuit specialist say breadboards can tolerate 20 AWG max
> (0.032"),
> > > > > Dupont connectors are 0.04". Will breadboards tolerate this long
> term
> > > or
> > > > > does it slowly damage the sockets? If it wil just loosen them I'm
> > fine
> > > > > with that as long as 24 awg will continue to work. Or should I see
> > > > > breadboards as having a more limited life? They have gotten a lot
> > less
> > > > > expensive.
> > > > > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
> > > > > --
> > > > > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > > > > View/change your membership options at
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> > >
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Re: [EE] solderless breadboards VS. "Dupont connectors"

RussellMc
In reply to this post by David C Brown
On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 at 03:44, David C Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I never realised that real engineers used solderless bread boards
> I thought they were for hobbyists and old men like me who aren't safe
> sharp knives and hot irons.  :-)
>
> That may deep-end on what one considers a 'real engineer' to be.

I have made very extensive use of breadboards on many projects over
decades.
Some have used maybe 6 breadboards per circuit.

I largely am very untidy with construction where routing and lead length
are not critical.
Despite many reports of unreliability and unsuitability for serious work I
have found them useful if used carefully and not usually a source of major
problems most of the time.
It is of course 'easy enough' to pull out a wire or make a poor connection,
so due attention to what you do do is in order.

Overall, used with awareness, I've found them immensely useful.


          Russell

Long ago (12 years?). Looks like 5 bbs in use.
Target is pink bodied light at rear right.

*Facebook photo
<https://scontent.fakl2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/474432_353540574719444_1007444724_o.jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_sid=da1649&_nc_ohc=6SnmAWBMiJMAX8KysyC&_nc_ht=scontent.fakl2-1.fna&oh=43737534a5b3fa901c5926178f4bbee4&oe=5F5E8B94>
*-
may work without a FB account

Larger here plus comments *on this facebook page
<https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=353540574719444&set=a.133775133362657&type=3&theater>*
.
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Re: [EE] solderless breadboards VS. "Dupont connectors"

RussellMc
In reply to this post by Clint Jay
Prototypes that see much use usually end up soldered.

On occasion where I have wanted a demo unit in a hurry I have used
breadboards (in part or whole) placed them in a 'more professional looking
enclosure) with eg added front panel controls and rear panel connectors,
and then
added a layer of foam plastic before screwing the case shut.
The foam holds wires and components in position and if it passes a
functional test once sealed, odds are it will work reliably enough for the
purpose. Not suitable (probably :-) ) for mission critical stuff.

One of my demonstration actions for "meant to be super rugged" items* is
(after the functionality has been well demonstrated) to drop the item on
the floor and then kick it across the room. In some cases a few throws
against a concrete wall and a bouncing trip down a flight of concrete
stairs may be in order :-).
Odds are a foam packed breadboard unit is not a good candidate for that
level of treatment*.

Russell

* Long ago I made talking communications devices for non-verbal users. Some
tended to be VERY hard on their devices. Being pushed off a wheelchair tray
or thrown around a room was likely enough. Seeing a unit being demonstrated
at higher levels of 'violence' gave buyers confidence.

Peripheral:

I used to do extreme demos of my solar lights - thrown against walls and
kicked down stairs - literally. A light that will survive that has a
reasonable chance of surviving "in the wild". Attacking the front lens
(polycarbonate) with a scriber or knife also impressed :-). SSome were
given to Special Service troops in Afghanistan. They asked about the effect
of abrasion on PV panels when carried externally. I found that chewing the
(PET) surface to an utterly mangled mess still gave 60%+ output (to my
surprise). Significant scratches and scars made little difference.

Very occasionally things broke. Once. Next time that failure mode had been
dealt with. A useful way to learn :-).

Small lights would survive throwing up 3 meters to land on concrete.
At 4 metres the carabiners would break off in less than 10 landings -
presumably impact energy constrained. They still worked.
Bezels would slowly decay with many 10's of impacts.




On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 at 20:00, Clint Jay <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There's a couple of cupboards at work with a bunch of BBC Microbits,
> Raspberry Pi, various STM32 boards and there's definitely a few breadboards
> for lashing up stuff with them too.
>
> There's a roller coaster model in the office that was built by interns and
> I'm pretty sure there's a breadboard buried in the bottom of it :)
>
> On Sat, 15 Aug 2020, 16:44 David C Brown, <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I never realised that real engineers used solderless bread boards
> > I thought they were for hobbyists and old men like me who aren't safe
> > sharp knives and hot irons.  :-)
> > __________________________________________
> > David C Brown
> > 43 Bings Road
> > Whaley Bridge
> > High Peak                           Phone: 01663 733236
> > Derbyshire                eMail: [hidden email]
> > SK23 7ND          web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
> > <http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>
> >
> >
> >
> > *Sent from my etch-a-sketch*
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 at 15:22, Justin Richards <[hidden email]
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > mr explainingcomputers.com just whipped out a 35 year old bread board
> > and
> > > he implied it has had some use and survived well.
> > >
> > > I think a good quality board is well designed to endure some degree of
> > > torture.  Some have good springy material that is difficult to bend
> past
> > > its elastic point.
> > >
> > > The trick is to distinguish a good one from a bad before buying it.
> > >
> > > You can always remove one of the strips and torture test it so you can
> > > observe its behaviour.
> > >
> > > justin
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 2:28 PM madscientistatlarge <
> > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thank you, I was assuming the pins were the same size as on headers
> > when
> > > > they are smaller.  In any case I won't expect solderless bread boards
> > to
> > > > last a long time.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
> > > >
> > > > ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
> > > > On Friday, August 14, 2020 9:21 PM, Denny Esterline <
> > > [hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I have some "far east import" "dupont" connectors and a caliper
> here
> > on
> > > > my
> > > > > desk, 0.022" - 0.025" So it seems the 0.040" spec is... suspect.
> > > > >
> > > > > Also, it's been my experience that breadboards are cheap compared
> to
> > > the
> > > > > time you spend chasing dodgy connections.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Denny
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 4:53 PM madscientistatlarge <
> > > > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Circuit specialist say breadboards can tolerate 20 AWG max
> > (0.032"),
> > > > > > Dupont connectors are 0.04". Will breadboards tolerate this long
> > term
> > > > or
> > > > > > does it slowly damage the sockets? If it wil just loosen them I'm
> > > fine
> > > > > > with that as long as 24 awg will continue to work. Or should I
> see
> > > > > > breadboards as having a more limited life? They have gotten a lot
> > > less
> > > > > > expensive.
> > > > > > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > > > > > View/change your membership options at
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Re: [EE] solderless breadboards VS. "Dupont connectors"

peter green-2
In reply to this post by David C Brown
On 15/08/2020 16:43, David C Brown wrote:
> I never realised that real engineers used solderless bread boards
> I thought they were for hobbyists and old men like me who aren't safe
> sharp knives and hot irons.  :-)
I generally won't (and can't) build a whole system on a breadboard,
but (if the components you want are available in dil and not too
sensitive) they are a good platform for trying stuff out before
committing to a design.

Past bad experiences have made me very wary of committing to use
a part in a design without doing some experiments with it first,
sometimes on a breadboard, sometimes on dev board, sometimes a
combination of techniques. If I have to I will resort to designing
a PCB to try a part out on but I'd rather avoid that where
possible.
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Re: [EE] solderless breadboards VS. "Dupont connectors"

William Westfield
In reply to this post by RussellMc
> I have some "far east import" "dupont" connectors and a caliper here on my
> desk, 0.022" - 0.025" So it seems the 0.040" spec is... suspect.

Indeed.  AFAIK, all the things sold as “dupont connectors” have the ubiquitous 0.025inch square posts used on the "rectangular connectors” everywhere.

The 0.04inch connectors are the pins used in D-sub connectors, which are “obviously” too big for solderless breadboards.

Real 0.025 pins are a bit uncomfortably large for a breadboard - try to plug in something like a microchip Curiosity board that you’ve equipped with 40+ header pins, and it will be annoyingly tight.  I’ve heard reports that some of the “far east import” connectors that are supposed to be 0.025in are a bit on the skimpy side - essentially near ideal for breadboards, but not reliable when mated with the (equally cheap) female connectors on a board…

BillW


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Re: [EE] solderless breadboards VS. "Dupont connectors"

Denny Esterline-2
Corner to corner on a 0.025" square is 0.0354", so 0.040 wouldn't be
unreasonable for a solderable hole....



On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 2:50 PM William Westfield <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > I have some "far east import" "dupont" connectors and a caliper here on
> my
> > desk, 0.022" - 0.025" So it seems the 0.040" spec is... suspect.
>
> Indeed.  AFAIK, all the things sold as “dupont connectors” have the
> ubiquitous 0.025inch square posts used on the "rectangular connectors”
> everywhere.
>
> The 0.04inch connectors are the pins used in D-sub connectors, which are
> “obviously” too big for solderless breadboards.
>
> Real 0.025 pins are a bit uncomfortably large for a breadboard - try to
> plug in something like a microchip Curiosity board that you’ve equipped
> with 40+ header pins, and it will be annoyingly tight.  I’ve heard reports
> that some of the “far east import” connectors that are supposed to be
> 0.025in are a bit on the skimpy side - essentially near ideal for
> breadboards, but not reliable when mated with the (equally cheap) female
> connectors on a board…
>
> BillW
>
>
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Re: [EE] solderless breadboards VS. "Dupont connectors"

William Westfield

> 0.040 wouldn't be unreasonable for a solderable hole

Oh.  Agreed.  I usually use 0.04inch (1mm) holes in PCBs for the posts.


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