[TECH]:: "Non petroleum based flushing solvent" for rotary vane pump.

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[TECH]:: "Non petroleum based flushing solvent" for rotary vane pump.

RussellMc
I'm trying to source a solvent that is available and (ideally but not
essentially) not stupidly expensive to flush a GAST 4080 non-lubricated
rotary vane pump.

GAST recommend their solvent AH255B "or other non petroleum based solvent".
It may or may not be available here (I just found out the possible need
today).
A spray can in the US sells for around $80 (sample of one). That seems
'rather costly' for what they say can be  "or other non petroleum based
solvent".
I'd pay that if essential and available.

Question: Has anyone had experience using  "other non petroleum based
solvent" for non-lubricated rotary vane pump cleaning?

Vanes - and so vane 'dust' are probably carbon, but GAST is not too
forthcoming on this.

It is essential that no hydrocarbon lubricants are used with this pump (or
presumably anything that thinks it is a close relative).

Flushing is performed when internal detritus (vane wear debris and ...)
lead to a degradation in pump volume or pressure.
Relatively minor amounts of material that lift a vane off the stator
housing can have significant impact on performance.
My pump has reasonable volume output but max pressure is substantially down
on expectations.

I'm not keen to dismantle the pump until after it has been used to serve as
a prototype in an 'important' demonstration. After that .... .
But it will get dismantled if it proves necessary. RVP's are extremely
simple and there should be no problems doing so - but a broken vane at this
stage would be disastrous.


    Russell McMahon
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Re: [TECH]:: "Non petroleum based flushing solvent" for rotary vane pump.

David Robertson-2
I googled for the MSDS for GAST AH255B and found this:
https://ehslegacy.unr.edu/msdsfiles/23097.pdf. According to it, it contains
the following:

1-Bromopropane;
3,3-Dichloro-1,1,1,2,2-pentafluoropropane, aka HCFC-225ca;
3,3-Dichloro-1,1,2,2,3-pentafluoropropane, aka HCFC-225cb;
Carbon dioxide;

The carbon dioxide will just be the propellant for the spray can, and the
other three components the actual degreasing solvent. Manufacturing
products containing those two HCFCs is apparently now restricted in the USA
so I'm guessing any cans of AH255B are old stock, which might explain the
price.

Anyway, based on that, I would personally try using dichloromethane.

David



On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 13:53, RussellMc <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm trying to source a solvent that is available and (ideally but not
> essentially) not stupidly expensive to flush a GAST 4080 non-lubricated
> rotary vane pump.
>
> GAST recommend their solvent AH255B "or other non petroleum based solvent".
> It may or may not be available here (I just found out the possible need
> today).
> A spray can in the US sells for around $80 (sample of one). That seems
> 'rather costly' for what they say can be  "or other non petroleum based
> solvent".
> I'd pay that if essential and available.
>
> Question: Has anyone had experience using  "other non petroleum based
> solvent" for non-lubricated rotary vane pump cleaning?
>
> Vanes - and so vane 'dust' are probably carbon, but GAST is not too
> forthcoming on this.
>
> It is essential that no hydrocarbon lubricants are used with this pump (or
> presumably anything that thinks it is a close relative).
>
> Flushing is performed when internal detritus (vane wear debris and ...)
> lead to a degradation in pump volume or pressure.
> Relatively minor amounts of material that lift a vane off the stator
> housing can have significant impact on performance.
> My pump has reasonable volume output but max pressure is substantially down
> on expectations.
>
> I'm not keen to dismantle the pump until after it has been used to serve as
> a prototype in an 'important' demonstration. After that .... .
> But it will get dismantled if it proves necessary. RVP's are extremely
> simple and there should be no problems doing so - but a broken vane at this
> stage would be disastrous.
>
>
>     Russell McMahon
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>
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Re: [TECH]:: "Non petroleum based flushing solvent" for rotary vane pump.

Denny Esterline-2
In reply to this post by RussellMc
I believe my sample set is not more than two, but the vanes I've seen were
a phenolic resin composite.

Obviously there's quite a bit I don't know about the pump and application,
but I would wonder if some water-based household cleaners might do the
task...
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Re: [TECH]:: "Non petroleum based flushing solvent" for rotary vane pump.

madscientistatlarge
You should definitely check material compatibility first, But automatic dishwasher detergent would likely work (if it won't harm the phenolic,I'm not very familiar with that material), It's very alkaline (wear gloves!).  I've used it to remove old, old Latex paint from a plastic storage unit that had been in a kids room, the whole thing was painted and then drawn on.  Otherwise some of the CFC replacements would likely work, Miller Stephenson is my favorite place for all sprayed chemicals.  You could call them/others and see what they recommend.  They have a large variety of cleaning sprays as well as bulk solvents of the halogenated variety.  For the aerosal products they filter the solution better when filling the cans than most.

I've worked with high vacuum chambers at a previous job but I have no rotary vane pump experience (We baked and brought the pressure down overnight on a turbo pump, and then closed the valve and started the ion pump).  I know no vacuum pump is inexpensive so it would also be wise to check with Gast, they must have a recommended replacement.  The phenolic likely reacts badly with some solvents, probably why they used CFCs to clean them originally, i.e. good solvency but with inertness.


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‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Thursday, June 11, 2020 9:09 AM, Denny Esterline <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I believe my sample set is not more than two, but the vanes I've seen were
> a phenolic resin composite.
>
> Obviously there's quite a bit I don't know about the pump and application,
> but I would wonder if some water-based household cleaners might do the
> task...
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist



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Re: [TECH]:: "Non petroleum based flushing solvent" for rotary vane pump.

RussellMc
In reply to this post by David Robertson-2
On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 at 01:23, David Robertson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I googled for the MSDS for GAST AH255B and found this:
> https://ehslegacy.unr.edu/msdsfiles/23097.pdf. According to it, it
> contains
> the following:
>
> 1-Bromopropane;
> 3,3-Dichloro-1,1,1,2,2-pentafluoropropane, aka HCFC-225ca;
> 3,3-Dichloro-1,1,2,2,3-pentafluoropropane, aka HCFC-225cb;
> Carbon dioxide;
>
> ...

> Anyway, based on that, I would personally try using dichloromethane.
>

David - thanks for that input.

One required (or highly desired) attribute which I stupidly failed to
mention was non-flammability. Dichloromethane qualifies.

The MSDS was on my list but I had not got there. Your comments started me
on a long and increasingly uncertain trail :-).
As I've found with a number of other products, there can be several
MSDS's that vary considerably - or completely.
In this case here is another NSDS for "the same product" listing only one
ingredient

     1,1-DICHLORO-1-FLUOROETHANE 1717-00-6 85% - 99.9%


http://shavogroup.com/Centraline%20Lurbo-Tech/pr5_technical5-2.html

That seems to put it in the "completely different (but similar)" category.

I also looked at MSDSs for GAST AH255D - which may or may not be similar.

I've now looked at paint strippers, brake cleaners, general cleaners and
more.
MEC is a common ingredient but not universal.

Things like this use perchloroethylene, methyl chloride, heptane & CO2
I do not know if the heptane is liable to contaminate the vanes.
http://jr.chemwatch.net/CWWS/MaterialService.svc/GetMsdsByOldExternalUrl?mode=sap&msdsformat=NWZLND&cwno=21-8162&passop=checkpass&user=crcnz&pwd=Rpx4hcxs&mtt=2&db=own



 Russell McMahon
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Re: [TECH]:: "Non petroleum based flushing solvent" for rotary vane pump.

Sean Breheny
Note that the first MSDS doesn't say how much of each component is present
and it says that it only lists hazardous components. It may be that
1,1,-dichloro-1-fluoroethane is considered non-hazardous so the first
datasheet doesn't mention it.

Is this pump being used for oxygen? For breathable air?

Sean


On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 2:59 AM RussellMc <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 at 01:23, David Robertson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I googled for the MSDS for GAST AH255B and found this:
> > https://ehslegacy.unr.edu/msdsfiles/23097.pdf. According to it, it
> > contains
> > the following:
> >
> > 1-Bromopropane;
> > 3,3-Dichloro-1,1,1,2,2-pentafluoropropane, aka HCFC-225ca;
> > 3,3-Dichloro-1,1,2,2,3-pentafluoropropane, aka HCFC-225cb;
> > Carbon dioxide;
> >
> > ...
>
> > Anyway, based on that, I would personally try using dichloromethane.
> >
>
> David - thanks for that input.
>
> One required (or highly desired) attribute which I stupidly failed to
> mention was non-flammability. Dichloromethane qualifies.
>
> The MSDS was on my list but I had not got there. Your comments started me
> on a long and increasingly uncertain trail :-).
> As I've found with a number of other products, there can be several
> MSDS's that vary considerably - or completely.
> In this case here is another NSDS for "the same product" listing only one
> ingredient
>
>      1,1-DICHLORO-1-FLUOROETHANE 1717-00-6 85% - 99.9%
>
>
> http://shavogroup.com/Centraline%20Lurbo-Tech/pr5_technical5-2.html
>
> That seems to put it in the "completely different (but similar)" category.
>
> I also looked at MSDSs for GAST AH255D - which may or may not be similar.
>
> I've now looked at paint strippers, brake cleaners, general cleaners and
> more.
> MEC is a common ingredient but not universal.
>
> Things like this use perchloroethylene, methyl chloride, heptane & CO2
> I do not know if the heptane is liable to contaminate the vanes.
>
> http://jr.chemwatch.net/CWWS/MaterialService.svc/GetMsdsByOldExternalUrl?mode=sap&msdsformat=NWZLND&cwno=21-8162&passop=checkpass&user=crcnz&pwd=Rpx4hcxs&mtt=2&db=own
>
>
>
>  Russell McMahon
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>
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Re: [TECH]:: "Non petroleum based flushing solvent" for rotary vane pump.

RussellMc
On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 at 20:42, Sean Breheny <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Note that the first MSDS doesn't say how much of each component is present
> and it says that it only lists hazardous components. It may be that
> 1,1,-dichloro-1-fluoroethane is considered non-hazardous so the first
> datasheet doesn't mention it.
>
> Is this pump being used for oxygen? For breathable air?
>

No. No.

Air pump to inflate an "air bag".
~~= 2 kW, 300 litres, 20 psig.

Flushing compound should be non-flammable (which I should have stated) OR
if inflammable used with extreme care.
Compressing inflammable vapour can make life interesting :-).
Or short :-(.

                     Russell

         Russell
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RE: [TECH]:: "Non petroleum based flushing solvent" for rotary vane pump.

Phillip Vogel
In reply to this post by RussellMc
I'd start with soap and hot water. If that doesn't clean out a bunch of crud, then some citrus-based solvent added to the mix. BTW, I use D-limonene (orange oil) and a little dish soap to clean flux (Kester 44) off of circuit boards. I have never found anything (including Freon solvents) that works as well.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of RussellMc
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2020 8:45 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]; Reid, John (Oji Fibre Solutions) <[hidden email]>; Peter Clark <[hidden email]>; Rod Macdonald <[hidden email]>; Jeff Finger <[hidden email]>; RossGMail <[hidden email]>; VHome <[hidden email]>; Owen McMahon <[hidden email]>; ApptechNZ <[hidden email]>
Subject: [TECH]:: "Non petroleum based flushing solvent" for rotary vane pump.

I'm trying to source a solvent that is available and (ideally but not
essentially) not stupidly expensive to flush a GAST 4080 non-lubricated rotary vane pump.

GAST recommend their solvent AH255B "or other non petroleum based solvent".
It may or may not be available here (I just found out the possible need today).
A spray can in the US sells for around $80 (sample of one). That seems 'rather costly' for what they say can be  "or other non petroleum based solvent".
I'd pay that if essential and available.

Question: Has anyone had experience using  "other non petroleum based solvent" for non-lubricated rotary vane pump cleaning?

Vanes - and so vane 'dust' are probably carbon, but GAST is not too forthcoming on this.

It is essential that no hydrocarbon lubricants are used with this pump (or presumably anything that thinks it is a close relative).

Flushing is performed when internal detritus (vane wear debris and ...) lead to a degradation in pump volume or pressure.
Relatively minor amounts of material that lift a vane off the stator housing can have significant impact on performance.
My pump has reasonable volume output but max pressure is substantially down on expectations.

I'm not keen to dismantle the pump until after it has been used to serve as a prototype in an 'important' demonstration. After that .... .
But it will get dismantled if it proves necessary. RVP's are extremely simple and there should be no problems doing so - but a broken vane at this stage would be disastrous.


    Russell McMahon
--
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